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Thread: Thinking of making a Chinese style plane

  1. #1

    Thinking of making a Chinese style plane

    After planing that slab cutting board for my friend (about 16" x 3" x 30"--not something for a machine planer or jointer that most people have), I have found that I *really* love the ergonomics of chinese planes.

    However, Mujingfang HK planes no longer seem available in the US (due to CITES restrictions on rosewood). The HNT Gordon looks pretty nice, but pricy.

    Meanwhile, I've been spoilt with the superlative blades recommended/bought through Stan.
    Oh, and I just happen to have too much flamed rock maple from my workbench build...and a few rosewood fretboards.

    I've started this thread since I'm pretty sure that I don't know what I'm doing.
    I'd love to hear your thoughts on what I plan to do:

    1. Plane Iron- 48 mm Ogata Hideji white steel from Iida tools (ebay)
    2. Plane body- Flamed rock maple laminated to rosewood sole. I plan to chop out the dai.
    Crossbar-- probably flamed maple to match.
    3. Role-- Try plane. I'll be copying the HNT Gordon try plane roughly.
    4. Uses-- flattening panels. Jointing soundboards. Maybe thicknessing some guitar wood (spruce, cedar, mahogany, port orford cypress, maple)

    My questions-- should I get a matching chipbreaker? I have hida tool nearby.
    What angle is recommended? I plan to use this plane mainly on north American wood

    I'd also appreciate any measurements that can be provided.
    Otherwise, I'll likely eyeball pictures off the internet.

    If this works out well, I may make a few more (smoother, jointer).......and yes, I know that I'm spending silly money and time on a plane that technically can be bought for less than the price of my blade from mujingfang...

    As a Chinese guy, I'd sort of like to get closer to my heritage...but with better blades and fit and finish.


    Sorry for the late night rant. Got too excited about making a nice tool.

  2. #2
    Matt,

    Highly recommend you go with the double iron.

    Are you going to go with a Krenov/Hock lamination or carve it out with floats, chisels, and rasps?

    On material choices.. 2 dissimilar species of wood solidly glued together = hydrometer. You will be constantly testing the humidity of your shop (and your patience) as your plane warps and twists with every humidity change..

    I think for the first one - I would stick with traditional straight grain regular wood that's used in planes and go from there. The #1 thing I would try to ascertain out of a piece of wood is - Will it subsequently move around in bad ways - twist, hump, warp, etc. I would start with a nice vertical grain (or clear split firewood chunk) with the wood grain running "the same - aka no "twist" of the grain say from vertical to rift. Stay away from reaction wood and anywhere near branches.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Perth, Australia
    Posts
    9,467
    Hi Matt

    If building a jointer, I would consider a wider blade, preferably about 60mm/2 1/4". 48mm is a snitch too narrow.

    As it happens, I did build a 27" long jointer with a 50mm (2") wide Hock blade about 10 years ago. It was single iron, bedded at 60 degrees, and influenced by HNT Gordon ... so you may appreciate the styling.





    It was sold. At 2", it was at it best jointing narrow boards. It was very light and the razee design gave it a very low centre of gravity. The mouth is far back, as with Chinese planes.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    twomiles from the "peak of Ohio
    Posts
    12,120
    BTDT...
    China Jack.jpg
    2" wide iron and chipbreaker...
    shavings.jpg
    Made from a video by GE Hong....Traditional Chinese Woodworking .

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    SF Bay Area
    Posts
    330
    You might try googling something like "building Japanese planes" there is lots on the web including information about wood and grain. Also, I've purchased many beat up Japanese planes on ebay and rescued really wonderful blades- some are not so great, but mostly they are very good. You could incorporate them into a Chinese plane design. Have fun. -Howard

  6. #6
    Hmm.

    Did I mention that I will be joining wood mainly about 4-6 mm in width? Also, I mainly want a plane for guitarwork... something like a size 3 with a longer sole.

    Mainly, I was looking at the HNT Gordon specs (50 mm blade) as a starting point.

    Also, here's the link I was looking at.

    https://youtu.be/9jrX-QHzhnM



    I will look through my stash for more suitable wood. . Humidity seems to swing from 45%-60

  7. #7
    As for the body, I was thinking of chopping it out like a Japanese dai

  8. #8
    Hmm. Maybe I will laminate it (krenov style), dripping hole for crossbar, and pare to final dimensions (seating blade, settling throat).

    I just want to experiment with this.

    If it works, I will build more!
    If it doesn't, I will order an HNT Gordon, and buy a traditional dai to fit the body from Hida tool.

    Oh, and for you bemused onlookers....try a good Japanese white steel blade.

    The konobu was *that* good.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Location
    Calgary AB
    Posts
    179
    Hi Matt, that Ogata blade should be very nice, I quite like mine. I think a chip breaker sounds nice and useful. Bedding at 45 sounds alright with a chipbreaker. I wouldn’t be too worried about the dai warping, it’s a first build and I’ve glued up many laminated plane soles without problems. Karl Holtey made a few rose wood sole curly maple body planes though he did have sliding dovetails jointing the sole and body. He wasn’t too worried about wood movement since it’s just part of the material. However might as well get the good solid material and save it for the next try when you’re addicted after this one. If you’re really worried and your maple is thick enough, it should be pretty alright without an exotic sole. You could experiment with endgrain mouth inserts in a few years if it’s called for, maybe even take a cue from HNT Gordon with their brass mouths. I’d try and mortise out the plane, I made a lot of planes that were laminated krenov style and I’ve had some come apart after a few years (daily use in high school shop and some abuse), and frankly fitting a Japanese iron to krenov style sounds like an added step with more time needed waiting for glue to cure. It’s decently simple to just chop the dai out, fit the blade, and then you can experiment with adding the Chinese twist. I avoided mortising out planes like the plague until recently and now I realize I’ve wasted a lot of wood avoiding that task. It seems harder in my mind now to make any plane by ripping a blank apart, and properly making abutments, wear, etc. There’s nothing wrong with a Krenov plane and I like the ones I make but mortising a dai out and seating a kanna is very satisfying and straight forward. Having thought it through again, making a krenov style plane with a Japanese iron is actually hurting my brain. A lot more things to line up during glue up if you’re trying to get the iron to still be self wedging. Brian’s website has a good amount of info on dai making, and there’s a video on Inomoto san making a dai. Took less then 18 min for the chopping out, he had it done in around 35 min I think, and that included fitting the chipbreaker. Search up Inomoto Dai on YouTube. Obviously Inomoto is going to be a lot lot lot faster then us but it’s a good video(s) for some inspiration. David Weaver has a western plane making series on YouTube and that’s pretty helpful especially the videos on mortising. In case anyone thinks I have an unfounded dislike for krenov laminated planes, I don’t dislike them but I find mortised ones to be better long run and easier to tune (wear, blade seating, etc). Photo below: Krenov plane I made a few years ago. Styling is after Scott Meeks’ “wave grip.” If only I had mortised it out I’d use it a lot more.


    Cheers,

    Vincent
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Vincent Tai; 04-12-2018 at 7:20 PM. Reason: didn’t see your plan to chop it out Japanese style and your workpiece widths the first time.

  10. #10
    Thanks for your tips!

    I'd gone to my workshop to recheck measurements regarding my most comfortable planes and look at my wood.
    The maple twisted/shifted a lot after just one week being not stored perfectly flat! These are 8/4 boards! Aargh!

    Discouraged, I contacted Kanamoya to see if I can cancel my ebay order.
    If I can't, I'll just try making a plane as stated in the future.
    If I can, I'll just order an HNT gordon try plane.

    I guess that seeing my limitations is probably not a bad thing, but it's rather frustrating sometimes.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Perth, Australia
    Posts
    9,467
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Lau View Post
    Hmm.

    Did I mention that I will be joining wood mainly about 4-6 mm in width? Also, I mainly want a plane for guitarwork... something like a size 3 with a longer sole.

    Mainly, I was looking at the HNT Gordon specs (50 mm blade) as a starting point.

    Also, here's the link I was looking at.

    https://youtu.be/9jrX-QHzhnM



    I will look through my stash for more suitable wood. . Humidity seems to swing from 45%-60
    Matt, if you plan to be jointing 4-6mm edges, you would be better off with a shooting board. A wide plane, even one that is 2", will be hard to balance and not tip one side to the other. You could also consider adding a fence to the plane to maintain vertical/horizontal alignment.

    With regard to the cross handles on the Chinese plane, I used these for many years - the 60 degree HNT Gordon planes come with them. After about a decade, I decided to modify my HNT Gordon Trying Plane to accept a pistol grip handle. This was not so simple as the mouth is further back than on Western woodies. With much experimentation - which taught me something about balancing mouth and handles - the pistol grip found a home. The issues here were the placement of the handle and its "hang" angle.



    It now works superbly. Terry Gordon was not too happy when I showed him, but I have used this plane for a few years now in this form, and it is fantastic for jointing narrow boards.

    My write up is here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Comment...fortPart2.html

    and here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Comment...fortPart3.html

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

    p.s. the guy in that video really needs to invest in floats! And learn to sharpen better.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Cohen View Post
    Matt, if you plan to be jointing 4-6mm edges, you would be better off with a shooting board. A wide plane, even one that is 2", will be hard to balance and not tip one side to the other. You could also consider adding a fence to the plane to maintain vertical/horizontal alignment.

    With regard to the cross handles on the Chinese plane, I used these for many years - the 60 degree HNT Gordon planes come with them. After about a decade, I decided to modify my HNT Gordon Trying Plane to accept a pistol grip handle. This was not so simple as the mouth is further back than on Western woodies. With much experimentation - which taught me something about balancing mouth and handles - the pistol grip found a home. The issues here were the placement of the handle and its "hang" angle.



    It now works superbly. Terry Gordon was not too happy when I showed him, but I have used this plane for a few years now in this form, and it is fantastic for jointing narrow boards.

    My write up is here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Comment...fortPart2.html

    and here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Comment...fortPart3.html

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

    p.s. the guy in that video really needs to invest in floats! And learn to sharpen better.

    This might be heresy, but I'm actually least comfortable with a western grip.
    Out of the bench planes I've used, comfort goes:
    Chinese t-bar> Japanese > Krenov > Western LV grip >>> Norris infill/older Bailey style grip
    For block:
    Western (LN103, LV apron) > chinese t-bar > japanese (which is quite comfy still btw).

    I know it's all subjective.
    Btw, my shooting board is just a piece of 4/4 flamed maple sitting around.
    I'd tried making a Derek Cohen style shooting board, but wasn't able to get it to work (probably because I'm working off the floor).
    I just like it.

  13. #13
    I forgot to mention that I'll still be making some planes.
    However, they'll be fingerplanes and using the white steel irons from Japan Woodworker.
    It'll be pearwood or mahogany epoxied to a desert ironwood sole.

    I have a Japanese friend that has had a lot of family tragedies, and I'd like to give her one of these planes.

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