Saw Skills

[Mike King]

Well, the adage "Practice makes Perfect" isn't really true. Practice makes permanent. Perfect practice makes perfect.

Which goes to the question of technique. There's a lot of advice to practice, but there's been no discussion here of the technique that results in success; that is, what are the biomechanics necessary (useful?) to address a saw to the workpiece and cut to the line?

I learned sawing in junior high school and promptly turned to machines for 40 years. Now I use a handsaw periodically when cutting certain joints. A guy showed me how to cut dovetails, but I'm not sure I truly understand how to address a saw.

Mike

[ken hatch]

Well, the adage "Practice makes Perfect" isn't really true. Practice makes permanent. Perfect practice makes perfect.

Which goes to the question of technique. There's a lot of advice to practice, but there's been no discussion here of the technique that results in success; that is, what are the biomechanics necessary (useful?) to address a saw to the workpiece and cut to the line?

I learned sawing in junior high school and promptly turned to machines for 40 years. Now I use a handsaw periodically when cutting certain joints. A guy showed me how to cut dovetails, but I'm not sure I truly understand how to address a saw.

Mike

Mike,

A link to Joel's blog over at TFWW: https://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/...o+Saw+Straight

I'm not sure it is answering your question but maybe.

ken

[Simon MacGowen]

Well, the adage "Practice makes Perfect" isn't really true. Practice makes permanent. Perfect practice makes perfect.

Mike

BULLSEYE.

The practice makes practice saying has misled so many people learning to do a task that many learners give up after a few practices with bad results whether it is sawing, planing or chiseling.

The oversimplified wisdom (not just this one) has done a lot of harm and people offering such advice with good intentions often do not realize it. A good woodworker (Gary?) recommends people doing one dovetail a day but repeating something in the way that didn't work in the first place wouldn't result in better outcomes.

Simon

[James Pallas]

I try to remember that learning to do something is a process of stages. Make it as easy as possible and learn the stages before moving on. I would approach sawing this way. Start by having a reasonable tool, not expensive necessarily. Make sure it is tuned well for learning. Fit to you hand sharp and straight. Easy starting for sure. Use easy but clean cutting wood, like poplar or alder. Pines can be sloppy cutting. Don't put any lines just start the saw and cut until it's easy. Now introduce a line across the edge and do that until you get it. You own body will make you adjust position until you get it. Now introduce a verticle line until you adjust yourself to do that. Make sure you master before you move on. Remember you did learn to eat with a spoon. Your parent most likely put that spoon in your hand, knuckles up, closed fist. You may still do that today but most likely not. Above all make it easy on yourself and go at your own pace. This is my take and I have taught a few others.
Jim

[Jim Koepke]

BULLSEYE.

The practice makes practice saying has misled so many people learning to do a task that many learners give up after a few practices with bad results whether it is sawing, planing or chiseling.

The oversimplified wisdom (not just this one) has done a lot of harm and people offering such advice with good intentions often do not realize it. A good woodworker (Gary?) recommends people doing one dovetail a day but repeating something in the way that didn't work in the first place wouldn't result in better outcomes.

Simon

The theory behind practice is to make an attempt, review the attempt for errors, then determine how to correct the errors and try again.

True practice includes analysis and corrections.

Making the same practice cut over and over without any change could be considered insanity, i.e. doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

jtk

[Prashun Patel]

"Perfect practice makes perfect."

"The oversimplified wisdom (not just this one) has done a lot of harm and people offering such advice with good intentions often do not realize it. A good woodworker (Gary?) recommends people doing one dovetail a day but repeating something in the way that didn't work in the first place wouldn't result in better outcomes."

Come on. Does it really need mentioning that one shouldn't beat their head against a wall, but should critically analyze and try to fix errors, and seek outside coaching/critique when you can't figure out how to stop the same mistakes?

The "practice makes perfect" suggestions - including mine - are to dispell the myth that are magic words and suggestions that will get you to perfect dovetails immediately. People here are quick to present their techniques as the key to their success and I firmly believe it's not the technique, it's the fact that you practiced (ok, practiced "perfectly").

[Patrick Chase]

Come on. Does it really need mentioning that one shouldn't beat their head against a wall, but should critically analyze and try to fix errors, and seek outside coaching/critique when you can't figure out how to stop the same mistakes?

As of the last time I checked "pedantry" wasn't against SMC terms of service :-).

I agree with you that when reasonable people say "practice makes perfect" they assume that the person doing the practicing will adjust what they're doing based on results.

[Frederick Skelly]

Mike,

A link to Joel's blog over at TFWW: https://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/...o+Saw+Straight

I'm not sure it is answering your question but maybe.

ken

Ken, thank your for posting that. It also links to his blog post on "sawing uphill". Both of these will help me out. So again, thank you.
Fred

[ken hatch]

Ken, thank your for posting that. It also links to his blog post on "sawing uphill". Both of these will help me out. So again, thank you.
Fred

Thanks Fred,

I never know how far into the weeds to go, but bottom line sawing is mostly body position and seeing. Both are hard to write about.

ken

[James Pallas]

Thanks Fred,

I never know how far into the weeds to go, but bottom line sawing is mostly body position and seeing. Both are hard to write about.

ken

True, true, constant adjustments are necessary over the years. Bad back, bifocals, trifocals, etc, etc.��
Jim

[Simon MacGowen]

Come on. Does it really need mentioning that one shouldn't beat their head against a wall, but should critically analyze and try to fix errors, and seek outside coaching/critique when you can't figure out how to stop the same mistakes?

[/QUOTE]
As a giver of advice, this kind of response of yours with assumptions on the intended receiver is exactly the point I wad driving at. You still don't get it, do you?

If I am very good at dovetails, why the heck do I need to practice them each day, to borrow an earlier quote? I only need to practice a cut or two before I work on my dovetail project. In reality, I don't even do that kind of warm up.

Practice makes perfect only makes sense when the way of practicing is right and that is not necessarily the case for many beginners.

Simon

[Prashun Patel]

Fair enough, Simon. I made an assumption about the receiver.

[Mike Holbrook]

Ken’s link to Joel’s post on TFWW (Tools For Working Wood) and James’ comments above, may get us closer to methods for learning to saw better. I read the article at TFWW back when I bought a saw from them. I did the exercise and I think it helps. James’ suggestion seems to be close to Joel’s, maybe easing into marking a cut line or two.

I like James’ idea of developing a feel for the saw and body position before marking lines. Staying with the small steps James mentions I have more recently started marking lines more & more accurately. Which relates to a point Prashun made about the importance of marking. I spend more time marking exactly, on three sides, which gives me a better guide. It is a pain to find that a line being followed is not perpendicular to another line.....The other thing I have started doing is working both corners and the top line early, attempting to get a slot that my saw slides effortlessly in. If I get both corners and the top line straight the cut seems to be accurate, if not...well. I am trying to use a knife for marking. The issue I have is I may or may not be able to actually see the knife line. Lately I have been using a direct movable light source shinning directly on the subject to help with that issue. I have also started hand sharpening pencils with a pocket knife or chisel to get the actual point of the pencil more durable and sharp.

Other suggestions? Talking more about practise. I understand the ultimate goal is to saw perfect lines without “crutches”.

[steven c newman]

I found that the thumb on my left hand helps quite a bit, in keeping the saw going staight in the cut. Thumbnail against both the line, AND the side of the saw's plate. Bend the thumb until the knuckle also contacts the plate....and keep both of them there. Older sources also show a square held against the saw's plate...so the sawyer can eye how the saw is cutting.

I use the thumb a lot, when I am sawing dovetails, BTW.