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Thread: Lessons Learned Hand Cutting Dovetails

  1. #1

    Lessons Learned Hand Cutting Dovetails

    I'm writing this to give the next guy ideas that may help. Those of you who are already expert will not get anything out of this. (Though you might be able to straighten me out if I've taken a wrong turn in technique!) Please understand this is just my experience and that yours may vary.

    Background. A few weeks ago, I decided I wanted to learn to cut Dovetails better, with the ultimate goal of a near perfect fit right off of the saw. I got on this kick because I bought a lovely LN tapered DT saw a couple months back. After using it a while, I wrote a "chop the waste vs saw the waste" thread. Coming out of that, I decided to bite the bullet and buy the Knew Concepts Fret Saw. That saw really was a game changer for me. I recommend it if you can spare the money to get one. After reading a dovetail thread here that recommended it, I bought a copy of The Complete Dovetail by Ian Kirby. I also read a Chris Schwartz blog one of you posted about cutting "a dovetail a day". I combined the two approaches, using Kirby's method to repeatedly cut practice dovetails as suggested by Schwartz.

    Getting to the point: Here's what I've learned so far, after 31 pairs of dovetails in 2 weekends:
    * Practice really does make perfect. The last 9 I've cut - including a box I just finished - were spot on. The previous 22 were spotty - some good, some downright cruddy. I couldn't get consistent.

    * Lesson #1: If your tails are not square and flat, your joint will have gaps. If the tail is even a 32nd inch out, you will have a gap. It MUST be square right off the saw or you have to pare it flat/square with a chisel.

    * Lesson #2: After practicing, I discovered that the way I was starting my saw cuts was impacting my ability to cut the tails square. I've read again and again to start a western saw on the push stroke, not the pull stroke. But when I followed Kirby's advice and started the kerf on the pull stroke, I could perfectly cut to the perpendicular layout line; i.e., my line of cut got perfectly square. I realize this is bad technique, but it just worked better for me. All I'm saying is "try it" if you too have a problem cutting to the perpendicular line. YMMV. (Edit: What I'm trying to say is that I have better control following the perpendicular layout line if I start on the pull stroke.)

    * Lesson #3: When marking the pins, put a non slip mat under the tail board. That really helped.

    * Lesson #4: When marking the pins, use a knife, but DO NOT score a deep groove. The saw falls into that groove and your pin comes out too narrow. (This experience is probably unique to me only. But it bit me several times until I figured it out.) Instead, I mark the pins lightly and run a sharp pencil down the groove. I cut the pin so that half the pencil line shows on the finished pin.

    * Lesson #5: Tap the joint together with a cross peen hammer, instead of a mallet. I thought Kirby was nuts. But as I was dry fitting the joints, I could easily feel and hear when a pin was too fat and needed paring. This really reduced my splitting the wood.

    * Lesson #6: If you get the tails square and the joints properly cut/fitted, the 4 sides of your box just pull together and it comes out beautifully square - without diagonal clamping. This was truly pleasing to watch and experience.

    I'll be making a ton more dovetail boxes to really lock in the skills/techniques. Might add new lessons here if I get more. But I hope some of this helps someone else some day.

    Fred
    Last edited by Frederick Skelly; 04-08-2018 at 6:05 PM.
    "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

    “If you want to know what a man's like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals.”

  2. #2
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    Fred,

    Thanks for posting this. It has great tips on cutting dovetails.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  3. #3
    Good post Fred...

    On #1...for me, if the cut is out more than 1/8” over 6”, there’s a gap. I check this by leaving my saw in the kerf and putting my 6” combination square on the back sided the tail board. If the the gap between the saw plate and my combination square is more that 1/8”, I know I’ll have to pare.

  4. #4
    Thanks for posting Fred. I appreciate your helpful dissection of the nuances and love your enthusiasm. Please post some of your work!
    It's never a bad day sitting at the bench cutting dovetails.
    Edwin

  5. #5
    Fred,

    All good points. The light hand in marking is very effective and I usually add the "140 trick" to aid in marking the pins. And last but most important is saw to fit from the saw. BTW, I almost never "dry" fit, a good visual inspection will usually tell if the joint will fit and at most I'll place the tail and pin board lightly together to check before glue up.

    ken

  6. * Lesson #4: When marking the pins, use a knife, but DO NOT score a deep groove. The saw falls into that groove and your pin comes out too narrow. (This experience is probably unique to me only. But it bit me several times until I figured it out.) Instead, I mark the pins lightly and run a sharp pencil down the groove. I cut the pin so that half the pencil line shows on the finished pin.

    This one use to mess me up a lot. I would want a nice easy to see follow edge so would score 3 or 4 times making a nice knife wall. Never worked though as you always mark with wrong side of the bevel and saw would always fall into it.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Shane MacMillan View Post
    * Lesson #4: When marking the pins, use a knife, but DO NOT score a deep groove. The saw falls into that groove and your pin comes out too narrow. (This experience is probably unique to me only. But it bit me several times until I figured it out.) Instead, I mark the pins lightly and run a sharp pencil down the groove. I cut the pin so that half the pencil line shows on the finished pin.

    This one use to mess me up a lot. I would want a nice easy to see follow edge so would score 3 or 4 times making a nice knife wall. Never worked though as you always mark with wrong side of the bevel and saw would always fall into it.
    I use the "rob cosman" method of marking the pins from the tail board. If not familiar with that method, it involves not wasting the tail board initially. Using the kerf cuts in the tail board, I have a marking knife that is the same thickness of my saw plate with set (marking knife doesn't have set). Using the marking knife in the kerf cut of the tail board gives my saw a "starting" kerf on my pin board. That's the only way I cut dovetails because that's the only way I know (that's the way I was taught). I also use the "140" trick as well.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Smira View Post
    I use the "rob cosman" method of marking the pins from the tail board. If not familiar with that method, it involves not wasting the tail board initially. Using the kerf cuts in the tail board, I have a marking knife that is the same thickness of my saw plate with set (marking knife doesn't have set). Using the marking knife in the kerf cut of the tail board gives my saw a "starting" kerf on my pin board. That's the only way I cut dovetails because that's the only way I know (that's the way I was taught). I also use the "140" trick as well.
    I have watched his videos and tried it a few times but I didn't have anything that would fit in the kerf besides the saw it self. It worked well but I need to work on it more. I have some old hack saw blades around but none fit in the kerf. I'm thinking of trying to hammer the set out of the blades and try again. If I can get that to work I'll look into making a kerf saw out of the blade. I though about getting his marking knife but can't bring myself to spend the money on it yet. Funny how I'll spend that on a normal marking knife though. lol

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Shane MacMillan View Post
    I have watched his videos and tried it a few times but I didn't have anything that would fit in the kerf besides the saw it self. It worked well but I need to work on it more. I have some old hack saw blades around but none fit in the kerf. I'm thinking of trying to hammer the set out of the blades and try again. If I can get that to work I'll look into making a kerf saw out of the blade. I though about getting his marking knife but can't bring myself to spend the money on it yet. Funny how I'll spend that on a normal marking knife though. lol
    While I'm sure his marking knife will work with other saws, the knife is designed around his saw. Meaning it's the same thickness of the plate plus the set (knife doesn't have set). At the very least, you could use your own saw holding it in your hands close to the toe of the saw. One thing to note however is that you offset your tail board the thickness of the saw plate and set. So, I set my saw on my plane and use my marking gauge to set the thickness of the saw plate (plus set). Then, I offset my tail board to the left using the now set up marking gauge. If I'm offsetting to the left (meaning pushing the board to the left), I use the marking knife on the right side of the pin and them reverse (offset right, cut left). This way of marking doesn't care about "splitting the line", "leaving just a bit of line left and paring to" or any of the other methods. This produces the exact width of the tail on the pin board. Now all you have to do is saw the kerf. The only place I chisel on a DT joint is to clean up the waste area left from my Knew Concepts fret saw.

    Kevin

  10. #10
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    Doesn't Roy Underhill just use the saw to do the marking?

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by steven c newman View Post
    Doesn't Roy Underhill just use the saw to do the marking?
    I believe he does...and I think I've seen Frank K do it too...but now all I see Frank K do is just cut without marking anything...he's also a "pins first" guy. The "using the saw" method is what I described above.

  12. #12
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    Using the reflected image in a somewhat polishef saw plate provides a great way to visualize square. There are numerous videos of this out there to watch and learn from.

  13. #13
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    Sawing square and leaving the knife mark are critical and been my demise more times than I care to mention. I started using a magnetic guide (OH NO!), and found the joint suddenly fitting off the saw...so I know that’s been my issue. The plan was to use the guide for training...not sure I’ll ditch it for some time though.

  14. Quote Originally Posted by Phil Mueller View Post
    Sawing square and leaving the knife mark are critical and been my demise more times than I care to mention. I started using a magnetic guide (OH NO!), and found the joint suddenly fitting off the saw...so I know that’s been my issue. The plan was to use the guide for training...not sure I’ll ditch it for some time though.

    Which guide are you using?

  15. #15
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    I got the clear urethane guides from Katz-Moses Woodworking.

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