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Thread: Shark CNC as a entry level tool?

  1. #1
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    Shark CNC as a entry level tool?

    I'm looking at the Shark from Rocker as my first step into CNC hobby applications ... having spent a couple of hours yesterday talking with a sales guy and a happy owner of the same tool .... I've now aware that the unit comes with a Laser Module to complement the CNC carving function.

    The Laser engraving is a feature that I want, are there other duel function machines I should compare against the Shark while I shop around?

    Is this machine a compromise in either or both it's functions because of it's duel capabilities?

    Depending on what comes with the sale it will easily be a $5k purchase .... what do you more experienced guys think.

    Thanks,
    Tim

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Boger View Post
    I'm looking at the Shark from Rocker as my first step into CNC hobby applications ... having spent a couple of hours yesterday talking with a sales guy and a happy owner of the same tool .... I've now aware that the unit comes with a Laser Module to complement the CNC carving function.

    The Laser engraving is a feature that I want, are there other duel function machines I should compare against the Shark while I shop around?

    Is this machine a compromise in either or both it's functions because of it's duel capabilities?

    Depending on what comes with the sale it will easily be a $5k purchase .... what do you more experienced guys think.

    Thanks,
    Tim
    The Shark has a lot of flex because they have used plastic in a lot of important areas that really need metal. I looked at one before purchasing the machine I have now. My machine is a Chinese imported (Not eBay but US vender ) and running on a updated control system with Ethernet connection. The control system is Mach 3 and some frown on Mach but its running on thousands of machines. My design program is VCarve Pro 9 and it creates the gcode to feed to the Mach 3 software. I might have $2500 or so in mine, not counting the VCarve Pro.

    The Shark laser, is a laser diode and perhaps 3 or 4 watts max. I had one (not Shark) and updated the control system on the diode laser engraver and was NOT impressed. Its slow and lacking enough power to do anything more than engraving... slowly on wood. I was lucky to sell it for perhaps 50% of what I had invested.
    Retired Guy- Central Iowa.HVAC/R , Cloudray Galvo Fiber , -Windows 10

  3. #3
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    Tim, my recommendation is that you carefully consider what you really want to do with the machine and select one that will easily do that and maybe a little more. And do very carefully consider construction of the tool...these things can generate a lot of force as they "do what they do" and the capabilities as well as "how long to do what they do" are very much affected by the machines's structure. I'm in no way saying that the small hobby machines shouldn't be on your short list; rather, I'm saying that like any tool purchase, it's important to make your investment count so you're not quickly faced with having to rebuy something.

    I started out looking at a small hobby machine...in fact, it was a kit system with a very attractive price. I realized that what I ultimately wanted to do was not likely going to be well served in that manner, outside of maybe absorbing some of the learning curve. So I set my expectations higher (and then higher when I decided to try and make a business out of it) to insure that what I put the money into would meet and actually exceed my initial needs and expectations. Honestly, I've always done that for tools, preferring to even wait a little longer so I could fund what I really wanted, rather than making a costly compromise.

    BTW, I agree with Bill relative to the laser situation. One of the machines I was originally looking at in "round two of my thinking" had one available, but after communicating with a bunch of folks that I happen to know "know their stuff", I ruled it out since I realized I'd never be satisfied with the low capability of "add on laser" for a CNC router.
    --

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  4. #4
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    Gentlemen,

    Thank you for pointing out these concerns, the potential / probable flex I've read some similar post opinions ...

    I have researched enough posts regarding laser engravers to also become concerned about the very weak laser / wattage. I was trying to justify that by planning to use the
    CNC function when the laser wasn't enough ... a compromise to be sure.

    Here is what I know I'll want to do, perhaps you guys would make a specific recommendation or two on CNC machines that would be a better choice.

    I turn on my lathe a lot of Christmas Ornaments, typically the globe is between 2.5 and 3.5 inches in diameter, with the help of a chuck style of Rotary axis I want to engrave the sentiments as customers specify around the center of the globe. ( Mr & Mrs Smith First Christmas 2018) as an example. Seemed like a Laser is a better choice then the CNC.

    Next I enjoy making small boxes, typically 5"x 8" X 3" to 4" tall I'd like to be able to carve all the typical Clip art style of designs (dog, horse, fishing, birds, flowers, unicorn) to appeal to a wide group of buyers, I don't anticipate much sign making though I don't want to rule that out.

    Any specific machine recommendations?

    Thank you for your help.
    Tim

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Becker View Post
    Tim, my recommendation is that you carefully consider what you really want to do with the machine and select one that will easily do that and maybe a little more. And do very carefully consider construction of the tool...these things can generate a lot of force as they "do what they do" and the capabilities as well as "how long to do what they do" are very much affected by the machines's structure. I'm in no way saying that the small hobby machines shouldn't be on your short list; rather, I'm saying that like any tool purchase, it's important to make your investment count so you're not quickly faced with having to rebuy something.

    I started out looking at a small hobby machine...in fact, it was a kit system with a very attractive price. I realized that what I ultimately wanted to do was not likely going to be well served in that manner, outside of maybe absorbing some of the learning curve. So I set my expectations higher (and then higher when I decided to try and make a business out of it) to insure that what I put the money into would meet and actually exceed my initial needs and expectations. Honestly, I've always done that for tools, preferring to even wait a little longer so I could fund what I really wanted, rather than making a costly compromise.

    BTW, I agree with Bill relative to the laser situation. One of the machines I was originally looking at in "round two of my thinking" had one available, but after communicating with a bunch of folks that I happen to know "know their stuff", I ruled it out since I realized I'd never be satisfied with the low capability of "add on laser" for a CNC router.

  5. #5
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    You don't "need" a laser to do the type of engraving you want to do as a CNC will carve that kind of thing nicely -- although a laser is better for really tiny things for sure. But "ideally" you want a CNC with 4th-axis support so it will automatically do the necessary rotation of the workpiece to carve on the curved surface if you do choose to go that route. That bumps you up a little in the hobbyist area. I did see one unit at a recent The Woodworking Shows event that sported a 4th axis on a very small, less expensive machine, but I forget the name now. Of the two US manufacturers that I am familiar or sorta familiar with, Camaster and ShopSabre both offer 4th axis lathe capability on their smallest machines which are about 2'x3' cutting areas. Both are going to be at a higher price point than what you mentioned in your OP, however. But both are built in the USA by US companies, too. Bill mentions that he has a small import CNC machine and that's also an option and likely one that can be had to support 4th axis work, too. I don't know what the price points are on them, however.

    One thing...in addition to how well built a machine is, also consider support and the support ecosystem as part of your quest. It's important for most folks because this is a different world than many are used to.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  6. #6
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    Thank you Jim, I do appreciate the insight you're able to offer.

    I think I'll put the Laser on the back burner and concentrate on the CNC machine. At that point I'll know whether I "need or want" the laser function.

    Tim


    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Becker View Post
    You don't "need" a laser to do the type of engraving you want to do as a CNC will carve that kind of thing nicely -- although a laser is better for really tiny things for sure. But "ideally" you want a CNC with 4th-axis support so it will automatically do the necessary rotation of the workpiece to carve on the curved surface if you do choose to go that route. That bumps you up a little in the hobbyist area. I did see one unit at a recent The Woodworking Shows event that sported a 4th axis on a very small, less expensive machine, but I forget the name now. Of the two US manufacturers that I am familiar or sorta familiar with, Camaster and ShopSabre both offer 4th axis lathe capability on their smallest machines which are about 2'x3' cutting areas. Both are going to be at a higher price point than what you mentioned in your OP, however. But both are built in the USA by US companies, too. Bill mentions that he has a small import CNC machine and that's also an option and likely one that can be had to support 4th axis work, too. I don't know what the price points are on them, however.

    One thing...in addition to how well built a machine is, also consider support and the support ecosystem as part of your quest. It's important for most folks because this is a different world than many are used to.

  7. #7
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    Tim my Import machine was from Automation Technologies out of Chicago. It had a rotary option but I did not order with the machine. The control box has the circuit board, wiring and plug so I could just purchase at any time. Frankly since I got involved in a kitchen remodel I really have not had the time to spend with the machine.

    I did run a file from VCarve I had from maybe 2009 and updated in my new VCarve Pro 9.0 to create the gcode file for the new controller and it ran fine but a lot faster on this machine. Do not get one off eBay get one from a US vender no matter what you consider.
    Retired Guy- Central Iowa.HVAC/R , Cloudray Galvo Fiber , -Windows 10

  8. #8
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    Thanks for the info, do you have an opinion on Carbide 3D and the machine is Shapeoko.

    Thank you

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill George View Post
    Tim my Import machine was from Automation Technologies out of Chicago. It had a rotary option but I did not order with the machine. The control box has the circuit board, wiring and plug so I could just purchase at any time. Frankly since I got involved in a kitchen remodel I really have not had the time to spend with the machine.

    I did run a file from VCarve I had from maybe 2009 and updated in my new VCarve Pro 9.0 to create the gcode file for the new controller and it ran fine but a lot faster on this machine. Do not get one off eBay get one from a US vender no matter what you consider.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Boger View Post
    Thanks for the info, do you have an opinion on Carbide 3D and the machine is Shapeoko.

    Thank you
    Carbide 3D that comes with Shapeoko seems to be a good, basic, easy to learn software package. One of the folks that helps create Carbide 3D is an SMC member. The good news is that you can move to more sophisticated software like Fusion 360 at any time should you need to. Winston Moy, a YouTube CNC guru, uses Shapeoko with Fusion 306 for his projects, for example. I do not know if the Vectric applications work with Shapeoko or not. I originally considered the Shapeoko when I first got the itch. It's a nice machine for what you get, although like most hobby machines, "swift" is not it's middle name. One of the nice things about the growing CNC world is that there are more and more choices, depending on what's important to you.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  10. #10
    Thanks for the kind words!

    Yes, Vectric's software works with the Shapeoko --- they've included a pair of post-processors since v8.5 and the community has some custom ones on the Shapeoko wiki.

    I bought Vectric Vcarve Desktop and used it for one project and it worked fine.

  11. #11
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    Thanks for that confirmation, William. While there are many choices for software, Vectric has a very meaningful market share and as a result, significant support resources available, both from the company and from others. That can be an important factor for someone wanting/needing "a little more" than the various basic software packages. The ability to start with the "desktop" version and then over time move up to the highest featured version merely through upgrade is also nice as folks' needs grow. That said, there are many fine choices when you get to needing more high-end capabilities. Choices are nice!

    I'm starting out with VCarve Pro and after what will likely be considerable time, will either move to Aspire or embrace something else like Fusion 360 or Rhino if I really get into the 3D modeling side of things.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  12. #12
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    Laser Engravers normally run in the inches per second category and CNC Routers run in inches per minute. This is the easiest way I know of to help those who are not familiar with either of these machines understand one of the the basic differences.

    Now, just to share some information about laser speed and power settings consider a job engraving the same project:

    35 Watt laser 25 minutes
    60 Watt laser 12 minutes
    80 Watt Laser 4 minutes

    Note that the speed of each machine varied as well but engraving speed is a function of power available and material type that is to be engraved. This means that if you have a lower watt machine you have to slow the speed down to compensate for the lower level of power to accomplish the same degree of engraving.

    The performance difference between a CNC Router with a laser attachment and a true Laser Engraver would be like putting a lawn mower engine in a race car. The 80 Watt laser is capable of 150 inches per second max speed with 5G acceleration. The 35 Watt machine would easily outperform almost any CNC Router with a laser attachment with the same power option just because of the difference in travel speed. A four watt laser mounted on a CNC Router could probably engrave a pen but it would be painfully slow to engrave a graphic or large text on wood.
    .
    Last edited by Keith Outten; 04-08-2018 at 11:30 AM.

  13. #13
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    Hi Keith,

    Those are amazing comparative numbers, I was well aware of the different laser wattage and the performance differences, but did not have any idea how much the range of engraving speeds changed.

    Very interesting, thanks.
    Tim



    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Outten View Post
    Laser Engravers normally run in the inches per second category and CNC Routers run in inches per minute. This is the easiest way I know of to help those who are not familiar with either of these machines understand one of the the basic differences.

    Now, just to share some information about laser speed and power settings consider a job engraving the same project:

    35 Watt laser 25 minutes
    60 Watt laser 12 minutes
    80 Watt Laser 4 minutes

    Note that the speed of each machine varied as well but engraving speed is a function of power available and material type that is to be engraved. This means that if you have a lower watt machine you have to slow the speed down to compensate for the lower level of power to accomplish the same degree of engraving.

    The performance difference between a CNC Router with a laser attachment and a true Laser Engraver would be like putting a lawn mower engine in a race car. The 80 Watt laser is capable of 150 inches per second max speed with 5G acceleration. The 35 Watt machine would easily outperform almost any CNC Router with a laser attachment with the same power option just because of the difference in travel speed. A four watt laser mounted on a CNC Router could probably engrave a pen but it would be painfully slow to engrave a graphic or large text on wood.
    .

  14. #14
    How does the Shapeoko compare with the Shark? Me and some buddies are thinking of going in on a machine for fun. I know the Shapeoko won't mill metals like steel, will the Shark?

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon Thill View Post
    How does the Shapeoko compare with the Shark? Me and some buddies are thinking of going in on a machine for fun. I know the Shapeoko won't mill metals like steel, will the Shark?
    Most CNC routers are intended to do wood, and perhaps with a well built metal framed one lightweight cuts on aluminum. I know the Shark uses a lot of plastic, not sure about the Shapeoko but I think the upscale ones are metal construction. If you want to do steel or aluminum on a regular basis look for a milling machine.
    Retired Guy- Central Iowa.HVAC/R , Cloudray Galvo Fiber , -Windows 10

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