Page 4 of 11 FirstFirst 12345678 ... LastLast
Results 46 to 60 of 155

Thread: Electric Cars - I'm Trying to be Open Minded

  1. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Henderson View Post
    It actually makes sense that the battery would not be recharged by the engine. You want to store cheap power in the battery, which you get from the electric power grid. If you used the engine to charge the battery, you would lose the "space" to put the power from the grid, and you'd use more expensive gas power to charge the battery and produce more pollution. On the Volt, if you don't have any power in the battery, the engine/generator provides motive power so you are never without motive power unless you run out of gas. When you get home, plug in and load up with cheap power.

    Mike
    Point well taken. I had not thought of it in those terms. Since my post above replying to Jim, I did a little re-reading and found the following:
    "The drivetrain permits the Volt to operate as a pure battery electric vehicle until its battery capacity has been depleted to a defined level, at which time it commences to operate as a series hybrid design where the gasoline engine drives the generator, which keeps the battery at minimum level charge and provides power to the electric motors. The full charge of the battery is replenished only by loading it on the electrical grid."
    Minimum level is normally 30% or 45% in mountain mode. So, Jim is between 30% and 45% correct .

  2. #47
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    SE PA - Central Bucks County
    Posts
    65,681
    Quote Originally Posted by William Young View Post
    Minimum level is normally 30% or 45% in mountain mode. So, Jim is between 30% and 45% correct .
    Close, but no cigar for me. But that's fine since I don't and never have smoked. LOL Seriously, I really do like the Volt's design that provides generation via gasoline when needed since that's still going to be pretty darn efficient.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  3. #48
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Upland CA
    Posts
    5,547
    On my Plug in hybrid Ford, most recharging of the 'drive' battery while driving is from 'regeneration' captured by slowing down, and especially braking. When I park my car, the dash usually tells me that about 20% of my driving has been done on 'regeneration' power, whether I used the gas motor or not.

    Going down a mountain for example, you can see the electric fuel gage go up. On the other hand, going up a mountain, it drops like a rock.

    Most newer plug in hybrids, and full electrics (BEV) have a way to increase the 'regeneration' rate, which meant when you let up on the gas pedal, it will slow down as fast as moderate braking. Some call it 'one pedal' driving, since you only use the brakes to come to a full stop. Kind of like the older Autopia cars at Disneyland. This is really useful, but manufacturers will need to invent an amber 'slowing down' light, because the people behind you will not have your brake lights to warn them you are slowing.
    Rick Potter

    DIY journeyman,
    FWW wannabe.
    AKA Village Idiot.

  4. #49
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Helensburgh, Australia
    Posts
    2,700
    This is worth watching, slightly off topic because the subject is hybrid trucks but the speaker is excellent...

    Chris

    Everything I like is either illegal, immoral or fattening

  5. #50
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Minneapolis, MN
    Posts
    5,427
    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Potter View Post
    Most newer plug in hybrids, and full electrics (BEV) have a way to increase the 'regeneration' rate, which meant when you let up on the gas pedal, it will slow down as fast as moderate braking. Some call it 'one pedal' driving, since you only use the brakes to come to a full stop. Kind of like the older Autopia cars at Disneyland. This is really useful, but manufacturers will need to invent an amber 'slowing down' light, because the people behind you will not have your brake lights to warn them you are slowing.
    This kinda sounds like using an engine brake on a diesel vehicle. The engine brake will come on automatically as soon as you let off the gas pedal. Commercial vehicles with engine brakes are required to turn on the brake lights when the engine brake is engaged. (Engine brake is commonly known as a Jake Brake.)

  6. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Parks View Post
    This is worth watching, slightly off topic because the subject is hybrid trucks but the speaker is excellent...

    Chris, he certainly makes some interesting points. I took note of the statement he made about the economics of electric cars (20yr ROI). I don't know the speaker's bona fides, but assuming he has his crystal ball well polished, then from this at least, we can perhaps assume full implementation is a ways off?

    My crystal ball says three things will impact development, acceptance, and adoption of all electric light utility vehicles:
    1. Technology - electric motors have great advantage in 'off speed', start/stop operation, and certainly the hybrid drives will take advantage without much sacrifice in range. As others have said above, storage is key - if you can invent a cheap grid-scale 'battery', the world will beat a path to your door, kick it in, and beg you to take their money. ...And as I said in another thread, I think most of us will be amazed at the pace of development - FWIW.
    2. Fossil Fuels - If/when they become expensive (or cheap? - 'law of supply vs demand' still works), it may skew car markets toward electrics. Certainly it looks like running out, but demand WILL shift to other sources and so extend supply. Time will tell how this finds balance.
    3. Government - Hands-off or draconian restrictions? Ad campaign touting that 'responsible citizens' should buy 'X' cars? 55mph speed limits or 'reasonable and prudent'? 'nuf said.
    Or, a fourth factor -
    4. Economics - To me, the first three all boil down to economics. All 3 have a direct impact on the price of owning and operating a vehicle. Can I, or you, or the average world citizen afford the latest electric car? ...To the OP's topic, there lies your answer.

    (Yeah, I know I missed something, but since I'm not the sharpest tool in the, er ... chisel rack, I will beg forgiveness and go back to work on my new battery design.)
    Last edited by Malcolm McLeod; 04-04-2018 at 9:56 AM. Reason: typo

  7. #52
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Helensburgh, Australia
    Posts
    2,700
    Ian Wright was one of the original founders of Tesla so I guess he has a pretty good understanding of the economics of the whole thing.

    What is forcing the change is not the shortage of fossil fuels but social necessity because the air quality in some cities has become intolerable along with noise and many other factors I haven't even thought of. It is obvious that the change will happen in dense population centres first and rural and other regions sometime later. I come out of the transport industry and I think the take up of electric power for trucks is a foregone conclusion for so many reasons it would bore you if I listed them, the big transport companies such as UPS etc must be salivating over their introduction and I think they will be forced to put money into R&D to accelerate the process. Hybrids I suspect will be a passing phase and something to be looked back on with curiosity as to why they were ever bothered with but we are talking a long way in the future, perhaps another century.
    Chris

    Everything I like is either illegal, immoral or fattening

  8. #53
    "
    GM will be phasing out gas and diesel vehicles within the next 5 years.
    "

    Uh, never. GM is a multinational corporation that would be out of business in six years if it did this. It has a legal responsibility to maximize shareholder value. The board of director would be removed.

    One thing I find fascinating about the internet age is how it shapes peoples opinions. Since you can find whatever you want on the internet, people tend to forgo reality, make their own reality and support it with internet links.

    Reality, technology is a wonderful thing, but it does not solve all problems. Everything has limits. Batteries have limits. No matter how good battery technology gets, it will never replace the tremendous amount of energy packed in a gallon of gasoline. Batteries will always limit range and take a long time to charge up.

    The sun has unimaginable energy, but, it is broadly spread as it hits the earth. This constrains technology. It can only concentrate so much because there is only so much energy available. To seriously provide any meaningful addition to our energy needs, we would need to blanket the entire state of Arizona with solar panels. Solar panels will never augment the energy needs of a car unless you don't mind traveling only on flat ground at 15 miles an hour or waiting an entire day to charge your car enough to go home.

    There are still trillions of gallons of oil. The easy stuff may run out then we extract the hard stuff. Shale and tar sands. But we will probable use it all in the next 300 years. Leaving it in the ground will not happen. The world's economy depends on cheap available energy.

    It is true that fossil fuels receive more subsidies than renewables in total. But not nearly as much per kw/hr. Renewables are incredibly expensive. They require rare earth metals that require a lot of fossil fuels to extract and refine. I am glad we are working on this technology, we may be forced to use it in the future, but today it is just a boondoggle. It simply is not a viable option. It is just a feel good attempt to satisfy guilt.

  9. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Parks View Post
    Ian Wright was one of the original founders of Tesla so I guess he has a pretty good understanding of the economics of the whole thing.
    ....
    T. Boone Pickens is largely thought to have a pretty good understanding of the economics of natural gas markets, and presumably of energy delivery in general. He has (had?) a plan (circa 2010) to use wind generated electricity in the Texas panhandle to compress air into underground salt chambers (man-made). This to be done in the mornings when peak winds occur. Then in the afternoon, as electrical grid demand picks up in a Texas summer, this compressed air would be 'harvested', mixed with natural gas and used to power gas turbine-driven generators feeding the Texas population centers. Since the incoming air is already at high pressure, they would have no need for the parasitic compressor section of the turbine - only requiring the turbine section, and so have improved efficiency. ...Magic!

    This plan developed with gas prices north of $6/MCF, as I recall. Unfortunately, Mr. Pickens' understanding failed to include the shale gas revolution. Gas-fired power stations produce power as needed using the <$2/MCF gas we are swimming in at the moment. (Aside: The US is slated to become a net exporter of n.gas. Our import terminals were converted or are in process to switch to export terminals.)

    Not to disparage Mr. Wright, but even experts and visionaries can get it wrong, even horribly so, at times.

  10. #55
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    Longmont, CO
    Posts
    810
    We have a Volt and love it. its a great small car and our avg. over the last 50k miles is 108 mpg. its much cheaper to use electricity than it is gas. one kwh goes about 4 miles and costs 10 cents. 2.5 cents per mile gas is around 6 cents per mile. the volt with is Gas generator is perfectly at home going over a 12k ft mountian pass, on a 4k mile road trip or putzing around town.

    I really don't know why anyone would buy any other car of a similar size. very few oil changes, no problems so far, documented to have very little battery capacity losses like the leaf with some examples having close to 500k miles and the less than 5% battery capacity loss.

    the car, per mile is much cheaper to own than just about anything else.

  11. #56
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    5,582
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Herman View Post
    We have a Volt and love it. its a great small car and our avg. over the last 50k miles is 108 mpg. its much cheaper to use electricity than it is gas. one kwh goes about 4 miles and costs 10 cents. 2.5 cents per mile gas is around 6 cents per mile. the volt with is Gas generator is perfectly at home going over a 12k ft mountian pass, on a 4k mile road trip or putzing around town.

    I really don't know why anyone would buy any other car of a similar size. very few oil changes, no problems so far, documented to have very little battery capacity losses like the leaf with some examples having close to 500k miles and the less than 5% battery capacity loss.

    the car, per mile is much cheaper to own than just about anything else.
    The issue for me is range. How far can you go with your battery power now? How far will you be able to go in 5 years (after the battery life is at least partly consumed)? Now, how long does it take to charge the battery again and how long will it take in 5 years? Also, how much degradation in range and battery life due to excessive heat and cold?

  12. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Pat Barry View Post
    The issue for me is range. How far can you go with your battery power now? How far will you be able to go in 5 years (after the battery life is at least partly consumed)? Now, how long does it take to charge the battery again and how long will it take in 5 years? Also, how much degradation in range and battery life due to excessive heat and cold?
    Exactly. For people like me who need a car to go long distances, electric vehicles simply do not work. 2 weeks ago, I drove about 500 miles over a weekend and had no place to recharge. That doesn't happen every weekend, but it's far greater than the range of even the best electric vehicle out there.

  13. #58
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    Longmont, CO
    Posts
    810
    you can expect between 30 and 50 miles range depending on speed, temperature and terrain on electric. and another 300 miles on gas. the battery can be expected to have this range for the life of the car if history can be trusted. ours is a 2013 with 70k miles and has the same range as it did when new. the battery on the volt is heated/cooled while charging and the temperature is maintained while driving as well, it is the best battery temperature management system in the industry and this is why the batteries are keeping the manufactured capacity.

  14. #59
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Saint Helens, OR
    Posts
    2,463
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Mooney View Post
    I worked out once what it would take to power a beach buggy (basically drive to the beach, park all day then drive home). It was marginal over about 5 miles and mostly impossible over about 10 (which required spending a fair bit of effort to lighten the vehicle). Panels are somewhat more efficient now (well.. some are) so I think you could get 10 miles. That was also in HI where the sun shines brightly all day. It was an amusing idea anyway.
    Granted the battery and solar panel technology is more complicated, but...we went from the Wright Brothers flying a hundred feet to putting a man on the moon in sixty some odd years.

    I can only imagine how quaint and amusing we will be seen as by future generations.
    Measure twice, cut three times, start over. Repeat as necessary.

  15. #60
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    Longmont, CO
    Posts
    810
    we took the volt on a 4k mile road trip. burned gas the whole time, still got 40 mpg. back to using electric at home for around town and not using any gas for that.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •