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Thread: Visit to Inside Passage School of Fine Woodworking

  1. #16
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    The students seem to come from all over the world, the two pieces in the office were waiting to be professionally photographed before being crated & shipped to Germany & Korea I believe. Clearly the 2nd and third term students quickly move to full size pieces but there are fewer of them.
    The four terms would cost about $40,000 so not your average program or student. They don't offer career training but way of life training for the aspiring amateur. Read the program to get a sense of what they offer. I doubt anyone there was sleeping on a couch.
    ​You can do a lot with very little! You can do a little more with a lot!

  2. #17
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    William,

    Many thanks for posting! Time at the school has been on my bucket list and i've been following the school for many years now. Interestingly, they have shifted somewhat from presenting themselves as a trade or craft school to more of an art school or arts center, basically getting away from presenting an expectation of being able to make a living from furniture making as they teach it. Which I think is a good and responsible path that allows them to continue focusing on detailed, small scale work that is inline with the Krenov philosophy. And the costs of attending.

    Their web site has or had a student archive of posts that provides some insight into the student experience as well.

    http://www.insidepassage.ca/archive

    It has been an inspiring school from just web site for me and thanks again for a firsthand account of a visit.

    Best,
    Chris
    "You can observe a lot just by watching."
    --Yogi Berra

  3. #18
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    William, thanks for sharing the experience. From the sound of it, was very inspiring for you. Its great to see that the school is passing along some of the philosophies and influences of James Krenov, and cool to hear that they extended some hospitality to you and let you have access to the facilities and its students.

  4. #19
    Thanks William. I called and talked to them a year or so ago. I wanted to attend but just couldn't find a way to make it work.

    Did you get any sense of the room and board possibilities there? It seemed like they didn't make any arrangements or provide help finding places for the students to live. And it wasn't clear to me whether there was affordable lodging nearby or if I'd have to drive some distance.

    Thank you.
    Fred
    "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

    “If you want to know what a man's like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals.”

  5. #20
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    I believe there are some B&B type places they are in contact with but perhaps until you find other accommodation, certainly not very affordable. It's an expensive part of the world to live, Vancouver is worse. The area is very well developed so there must be rental places but finding somewhere for 10 weeks at a time can not be easy. Lots of marinas around so renting a boat may work out. Taking an RV with you may also work but rates are high in that area. All groceries come over on the ferry so that bumps up all costs, the ferry is about 40 minutes each way at $80 return for a car and two people.
    ​You can do a lot with very little! You can do a little more with a lot!

  6. #21
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    Derek: Here are a couple notes to clarify, if I may:

    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Cohen View Post
    Thanks William, both for the material and photos you posted, and for sharing an experience for which I would give my eye teeth!

    Derek and William: I will comment a little - I live about 15 minutes from IP and am going to spend the last two weeks of April ( 2018 ) finishing up the ' first ' program at the school - I enrolled when they were splitting up the terms, which they no longer do, as it can create open bench space(s). I am truly a lucky lad to live so close to a place that people come from all over the world to attend. As William said, it is truly inspiring. Robert and Yvonne are wonderful people, Robert a true Craftsman, and his assistant, Caroline, is exceptional as well.


    I have been a fan of Jim Krenov forever, and read and re-read his books. I own one of his smoothers, which is beyond monetary value to me.

    You are a lucky man Derek - Attending the School, I have had the opportunity to use several of JKs planes; that is as close as I will get...


    Having said this, what you need to comment on is context. For example, you mention that the mouths of the planes made (no doubt still with the Hock blade-chipbreaker created for these planes) is very small. That supports my understanding that these planes - and Krenov - do not use the chipbreaker to control tearout. One cannot set a close chipbreaker on a tiny mouth as it will clog the escapement.

    Derek: When made, the mouths are made as tight as possible - we set the CBs really close ( but not as close as I set my Stanleys for instance ) - on my Krenov style planes, I typically set to less that 1/32''.


    The second factor follows from this, and that is the wood that is used. If figured, how do the students learn to control tearout? I do not recall Jim ever making a plane with a high cutting angle. All were common angle (45 degrees). Do they rely on scrapers? Or do they avoid all but straight grained wood?

    Derek: Typically, Krenov used straight grain wood, however, much of the wood he used ( and the School uses in the later sessions ) can be reversing grain - Bocote, Goncalo Alves, Sapele, etc. Also, many of these are abrasive, which presents its own problems. There are a couple higher angle planes floating around, but a well tuned Krenov style plane at 45 degrees will deal with most issues, especially on real fine cuts. Scrapers are used, but infrequently. Sandpaper is not used for final wood finish at all. All surfaces are either planed, scraped, or chiseled before finish.


    Thirdly, the jointer plane is 9". Again this suggests that hand planes were not used to joint wood, but perhaps only used to refine a joint, with the work mainly done by machines. Krenov was big on his use of machinery. This is not a criticism - I am equally a blended woodworker - but the reason for a short "jointer" needs to be clarified. 9" is the length of your average #3. Other than Paul Sellers (who probably also prepares his wood on machines), I do not know anyone recommending jointing with such short hand planes.

    Derek / William: I don't know what William was shown - typically the smoothers are in the 9'' range and the jointer ( C/W 1'' blade ) is around 11-1/2 - 12'' long. The smoothers use a 1-1/2'' blade. The bulk of the work is done by machine, but like I noted, every surface is touched by a hand tool, even edge jointing- glue lines are non-existant if done properly, as we all know.

    Here is a thread I started when I made, as a side project while at IP, a 1-1/4'' jointer while at the school - it is about 13'' IIRC: https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread....age3&p=2549372


    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  7. #22
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    Ernest:

    An explanation - perhaps - the first session of the School is to build something that is achievable in the ten weeks. Larger = longer time required to some degree - as also noted, lugging anything larger back home - around the globe in many cases, would be a chore.

    The ' Wabi Sabi ' cabinet from the first term starts out as a 14/4 to 16/4 ( or so ) x 11'' - 12'' x 24'' long piece of poplar, it is slabbed out with grain graphics in mind - a story stick is used from the already built example for reference. One week of the program is almost solely spent on making planes, so the raw cant to finished piece is less than 8 weeks. There are also other things incorporated in the program - mortice and tenon saw horses ( fairly diminuative ) parquetry exercise, a couple small hand carving knives, sharpening ( of course ) etc.

    The cabinet contains: a concave, 5 piece door, a frame and panel back piece ( rail and stile with a cross piece ) dovetailed drawer in a tapered pocket, dowel constructed carcase ( a Krenov staple ), cross shelf on adjustable consoles, hand made brass hinges, curved sides on the top , bottom and sides of the carcase, etc. Ultimately, most of the skill required to make any size piece, as most of the disciplines are covered.

    The Second Term is to faithfully re-create a JK piece, to exacting standards.

    Third Term is Vidar's Chair and the Fourth Term is ' Composing ' - by this point, with consultation, a piece is made, more or less heavily Krenov inspired, to full size.

    Hopefully that explains things a bit - there is a really nice web page - Google 'Inside Passage School of Fine Cabinetmaking' - lots of exceptional photos in the photo gallery.


    Quote Originally Posted by ernest dubois View Post
    I do have one criticism of this school and that is I think they take this diminution in scale to excess. The scale of Krenov's and similar work is a true eye opener in dimension but here they seem to try and go him one better. It's just a personal, not even beef but observation based on admittedly, (very), limited exposure. I wonder what you found William, (or anyone else with experience).

  8. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Beauchesne View Post
    Derek: Here are a couple notes to clarify, if I may:
    You have said that sandpaper is never used to finish the surface, ok but it is not what I have heard from another student of Krenov at College of the Redwoods who has said he definitely did use sandpaper which was a surprise to me to hear.

    Funny, I've got almost the same cocobolo plane as you show thereDSCF0090.jpg
    Last edited by ernest dubois; 04-02-2018 at 6:45 AM.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by ernest dubois View Post
    You have said that sandpaper is never used to finish the surface, ok but it is not what I have heard from another student of Krenov at College of the Redwoods who has said he definitely did use sandpaper which was a surprise to me to hear.

    Funny, I've got almost the same cocobolo plane as you show thereDSCF0090.jpg
    Ernest - Nice plane! How does it perform? My ' racing plane ' from the old thread is a champ - last year we had a plane demo as part of the WW Guild I belong to - the main presenter did a great of showing how different angles performed on a piece of highly reversing grain Eastern Hard Maple. There was still some tearout with the best combination he displayed. I am not boasting here, but my 1-1/4'' jointer got rid of the tearout, and left a glassy surface on the same piece of ' diablo maple ' . Believe me, I am just someone who listens well when told what to do - that is how the racing plane was born.

    My French Canadian Grandfather was a Carpenter in his youth - they made their own planes etc. Sadly, they were all destroyed in a fire when he was a young man- He always stressed that any edge tool ( knife, axe, chisel, etc. ) had to be razor sharp - that is one thing I vividly remembered from him. Sadly, he lived a long way from where I did, and I never got to learn anything woodworking other than the sharpness speech. I have only taken up somewhat serious woodworking for the past 20 years, mostly self taught until going to IP.

    As for the CR student - I can't comment on the CR methods. I have been around the IP School enough that sandpaper just isn't used before finishing - it is the thought that the planed ( or scraped if necessary ) finish is superior. Like I said, there are a couple of higher angle planes around to use if required, scraping if that doesn't work, but definitely no power sanders or sanding blocks. Curved surfaces are finished with a spokeshave or, tighter quarters, a chisel , shop made knife, or files / really fine rifflers are employed. Uber sharp and a finely fettled mouth will tame a lot of beasts.

    Flattening plane bottoms - yes. 180 grit sticky back automotive body repair sandpaper is stuck to the bed of a jointer and the bottom of a plane trued up if necessary.

    Dave B

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frederick Skelly View Post
    Thanks William. I called and talked to them a year or so ago. I wanted to attend but just couldn't find a way to make it work.

    Did you get any sense of the room and board possibilities there? It seemed like they didn't make any arrangements or provide help finding places for the students to live. And it wasn't clear to me whether there was affordable lodging nearby or if I'd have to drive some distance.

    Thank you.
    Fred
    Frederick: If you contact Yvonne at the School, she has a list of a few B&Bs that cater to the Students at IP - it is tough - there is a serious tourist component to living here, but accommodation prices drop in the winter, so that may be a better time to come if need be. Many of the places are withing walking or cycling distance.

    Dave B

  11. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by William Fretwell View Post
    If I could find 10 weeks to spare I would love to sign up. The school has no accommodation so finding an affordable place to stay is one challenge, my lost income would be the greatest challenge.
    The school teaches dovetails in the third term which surprised me. Many experienced students come for the first term only then resume their woodwork outside I was told.
    Most of the students were working on a small cabinet about 15" high, 5" wide and deep with a convex door and one shelf inside. It did seem too small to be useful.
    I asked if there was some course suitable for a non beginner as marquetry and veneer work would be of considerable interest but was only referred to the foundation program.
    My 'mentor' would be Tage Frid if I can claim one guiding light many years ago. He taught being productive, fixing your mistakes and producing fine pieces. The time taken for each student to produce this small cabinet is considerable. The emphasis is clearly on slow precision not productivity. The quality of the final pieces has to make up for the time taken and it did seem to.
    A different philosophy and food for thought in my own work.
    Teaching folks to do things goes at a different pace than "making production".... Especially when you are trying to teach someone the process of how to do it right the first time and not have to fix, shim, and rework.... Slow patient work turns out to be quite fast at getting things done when you don't make mistakes...

    Once people have "The Chops" - work speeds up considerably...

    On the size of things.... Small things can be challenging to make because errors are glaring... But also let's face it.. There is probably a better market for hand made jewlery boxes than for large hand made casework.. And so it's worth teaching people how to make things that will sell.. No doubt it's also much easier for a student to take a small box home with them than a large free standing cabinet..

  12. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Beauchesne View Post
    Ernest - Nice plane! How does it perform? My ' racing plane ' from the old thread is a champ - last year we had a plane demo as part of the WW Guild I belong to - the main presenter did a great of showing how different angles performed on a piece of highly reversing grain Eastern Hard Maple. There was still some tearout with the best combination he displayed. I am not boasting here, but my 1-1/4'' jointer got rid of the tearout, and left a glassy surface on the same piece of ' diablo maple ' . Believe me, I am just someone who listens well when told what to do - that is how the racing plane was born.

    My French Canadian Grandfather was a Carpenter in his youth - they made their own planes etc. Sadly, they were all destroyed in a fire when he was a young man- He always stressed that any edge tool ( knife, axe, chisel, etc. ) had to be razor sharp - that is one thing I vividly remembered from him. Sadly, he lived a long way from where I did, and I never got to learn anything woodworking other than the sharpness speech. I have only taken up somewhat serious woodworking for the past 20 years, mostly self taught until going to IP.

    As for the CR student - I can't comment on the CR methods. I have been around the IP School enough that sandpaper just isn't used before finishing - it is the thought that the planed ( or scraped if necessary ) finish is superior. Like I said, there are a couple of higher angle planes around to use if required, scraping if that doesn't work, but definitely no power sanders or sanding blocks. Curved surfaces are finished with a spokeshave or, tighter quarters, a chisel , shop made knife, or files / really fine rifflers are employed. Uber sharp and a finely fettled mouth will tame a lot of beasts.

    Flattening plane bottoms - yes. 180 grit sticky back automotive body repair sandpaper is stuck to the bed of a jointer and the bottom of a plane trued up if necessary.

    Dave B
    I have always been real pleased with this one in particular and I am attached to the scale of it which makes me want to do work that is similarly, scaled to suit. The heft of the cocobolo gives the plane a real quality feel to it. I will say this, the intention of the plane as I built it, is primarily for use in that one kind of veneering work, you know it and I know it and it's what gets taught at both these institutions. That said I won't hesitate to use it in a variety of cases, even on occasion, surfacing panels, end grain, where it excels and so forth and so forth...
    What I say about sanding is information I've gotten from a student, only pertaining to Krenov himself and certainly restricted to a minimum meaning light hand sanding. I wouldn't want to give anybody any wild ideas.
    Well, if your grandfather used self-made planes this is the connection then as Krenov explains he has taken inspiration from the old Swedish books on carpentry and the tools to make his new and improved versions.

  13. #28
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    When my wife and I visited Alaska we visited the Inside Passage and also saw Denali. We visited the school, but we did not have time to take a class.

  14. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Beauchesne View Post
    Frederick: If you contact Yvonne at the School, she has a list of a few B&Bs that cater to the Students at IP - it is tough - there is a serious tourist component to living here, but accommodation prices drop in the winter, so that may be a better time to come if need be. Many of the places are withing walking or cycling distance.

    Dave B
    Thank you Dave! I appreciate it.
    Fred
    "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

    “If you want to know what a man's like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals.”

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by William Fretwell View Post
    I did not get to spend much time with Robert as he was tied up with teaching buy Yvonne kindly showed me around and told me about the school. You can never have too much wood is a philosophy they share with me I was told, as I looked at their latest wood score from someone who actually had too much wood.

    Attachment 382756
    One can never have too much wood as i know about that latest score as it came from my shop. All of that wood i had for over 20 years and some of it 40 years. It was time to downsize and I also realized that i more than likely realized that I would never use it
    ron

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