Engraving 80 and 90% Lowers

[Kev Williams]

Laughable? I think maybe I should be offended, because I don't consider capitulating to the demands of a few Hitleresque ATF agents, who are taking the last lines of ATF ruling 2009-1 'as law', when the ACTUAL LAW, not to be confused with RULINGS which are NOT laws but only intended to enhance the actual laws, conveniently leave out the very portion OF the law that says I don't HAVE to get a damn license.

The last line reads:
Held further, any person who is engaged in the business of camouflaging or engraving firearms as described in this ruling must be licensed as a dealer, which includes a gunsmith, under the Gun Control Act.

^^^THIS STATEMENT is what WAY too many agents are hanging their hat on. However, according TO the Gun Control Act, the term DEALER or GUNSMITH shall not apply to me, because engraving guns has never been anything BUT an occasional part of my overall business. And it's NOT funny how these rulings just leave that part of the law out...

This is a link to AFT rulings-- find Ruling 2009-1, read the whole thing--
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ruling/2009-1-firearms-manufacturing-activities-camouflaging-or-engraving-firearms/download

And for fun, scroll up to ruling 2010-10 and check out page 2, where once again the definitions of gunsmiths and dealers are presented, but you'll notice they still fail to actually print out the 'occasional' reference, but they DID end the sentences with "..." < yup, 3 dots--- Now THAT I find funny, because those dots are just legaleze for 'we're not printing out the entire wording of the law but our lawyers say we must at least show there IS more wording." 3 dots or not, it's intentionally misleading...

the >ONLY< gray area in the law whatsoever, is who gets to define 'occasionally'. For many a year, it's been loosely defined by the ATF in general as less than half of your business sales/income. Which is exactly what an non-Hitler ATF agent in my area told me nearly 4 years ago.

Finally, screenshot for Gary who wanted me to find something 'relating to gunsmithing'-- In 18 USC 19:21 there wasn't, but in 27 CFR 478:11 there is:

27CFR part 478,11 defintions.jpg

finally-- you don't need to be a lawyer to read the law, just eyes...

[Gary Hair]

This isn't going to make me any friends here, but it needs to be said...
This thread is too funny!!!!!! I really had no idea that so many of you where closet lawyers. Very laughable!!!!
Bottom line why tight rope or work the loop holes in yours or someone elses interpretation of the law? I'm loosing no sleep when I for example slap a serial number on an 80% & my customers could care less either.
Why is it so mind numbing difficult for people to just get an FFL if they need it and follow simple instructions of those looking over their shoulder (local ATF agent)? Why second guess, why look for loop holes, why defend stupid positions? As I stated before, even if I'm right and the ATF agent is wrong, I'm not going to waste my time & money to fight it.

Where is that "Like" button...

[Nick Hale]

I just wanted to drop this link in. I do not think 80% lowers are anything more than a fancy piece of metal or plastic. I do not believe they require a FFL to engrave on, unless you are attempting to engrave out the inside to get it to function, for somebody else. Here is what ive seen from the ATF. List engraving, painting, camo'ing and taping? The way I read it, it states you must have a minimum FFL to do any of those listed jobs.

https://www.atf.gov/file/55461/download

[Gary Hair]

I just wanted to drop this link in. I do not think 80% lowers are anything more than a fancy piece of metal or plastic. I do not believe they require a FFL to engrave on, unless you are attempting to engrave out the inside to get it to function, for somebody else. Here is what ive seen from the ATF. List engraving, painting, camo'ing and taping? The way I read it, it states you must have a minimum FFL to do any of those listed jobs.

https://www.atf.gov/file/55461/download

That states it pretty clearly and distinctly.

[Bert Kemp]

I think this says it all

" even if I'm right and the ATF agent is wrong, I'm not going to waste my time & money to fight it."

So I think Tim means that if the ATF agent decides to arrest you even tho he is wrong, its going to cost you a lot of money and time to prove he's wrong, So why not just get the license besides that you can always make a few bucks if you have it transferring LOL

[Scott Shepherd]

I agree with both sides to some level. I'm with Tim and Gary. We have a FFL, so it's a done deal for us. We have had many of the same conversations with ATF that are reported here. We've been told that part of manufacturing a firearm is putting the serial number on it. In fact, to register as a manufacturer, you are expected to be able to make the weapon. There are special variations for people who say they manufacturer but have to sub everything out. The serial number is considered part of the manufacturing process, therefore, to put serial numbers on, you will be labeled (and treated) as a manufacturer. Keep that in mind. Not a gunsmith, but a manufacturer. The FFL for manufacturers is quite more pricey than the normal FFL.

I've had substantial disagreements with the ATF about things and backed them into a corner when they talked out both sides of their mouth. In the end, none of it matters. That paper pusher can make our life pleasant or make it a pain and it's our choice on which one we choose. I've got better things to do than fight with the ATF. Every minute I'm fighting with them, on the phone, or in court, is lost revenue from something I could have been doing. I'm not going to spend $5000 in lost earnings to try and save $200. Right or wrong, I don't care. I'm not in business to break a path for more or less ATF regulations. If I want to fight that battle, I'll step aside and fight that one on my own when I'm not trying to earn money.

We're all free to do what we want. We'll stick with engraving things for money and let someone else fight the federal government.

[Tim Bateson]

... Reason #1 for me not having a FFL is running my business out of my home, means the ATF can come anytime day or night for an Inspection, and #2 I would also need to get a permit from the city for that gun business and that's not going to happen.

I run my business from my house -
#1 - Possible, but reality is it rarely happens (I've had zero). There are too many FFL holders & too few ATF agents. They have a very difficult time even checking our books - supposed to be every 3 years (I think). I know FFL holders who haven't been audited in over 10 years. They are suppose to do it during your business hours & my hours are by appointment only. "If" they did show up, my books are up to-date & all weapons are stored in the safe. Nothing to see here.
#2 - On my local Zoning Certificate application, I gave them little reason to deny me. Although I'm legally allowed to manufacture and sell firearms, that's not what my application highlights.. outright. Instead, I really emphasized other portions of my engraving business. I was mostly vague about firearms/weapons. I did mention I provide a custom engraving service that provides the ATF with identifying and firearm tracking information.

[John C Cox]

Please consult with a lawyer who specializes in this before you take the business...

In general - if you are going to work on guns or parts of guns for money - you need the correct FFL license. If you are going to err - err on the side of caution because these regulations and their interpretations can change with the direction the political wind is blowing... And you don't want to end up in jail...

These enforcement and interpretation of these regulations also can be different from state to state...

Remember that agents often do not know the finer points of the law.. They are not lawyers... And each one seems to have a different interpretation of the law. And doing what one agent says is no guarantee that you can't end up in jail for doing it...

[Gary Hair]

In general - if you are going to work on guns or parts of guns for money - you need the correct FFL license.

So close... "parts of guns" are just pieces of metal, as far as the AFT is concerned anyway, all you need the FFL for is if you are handling what they consider to be "the firearm" - generally speaking that is the part with the serial number. Truly, nothing else matters.