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Thread: Engraving 80 and 90% Lowers

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos Alvarez View Post
    That doesn't mean that a non-FFL must do it, or is prevented from taking possession. I can hand you a gun to borrow indefinitely, no?
    No. According to Federal Law you can only give, sell, or lend a firearm to anyone who can legally take possession of a firearm, someone who is not disqualified from possession or ownership of a firearm. This is true whether you are an FFL or not, same rules apply.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos Alvarez View Post
    https://www.atf.gov/file/100871/download

    Are you looking to make a profit?As noted above, if you are repetitively buying and selling firearms “with the principalobjective of livelihood and profit,” you must be licensed. Because the key is intent orobjective, the courts have made clear that a person can be “engaged in the business”of dealing in firearms without actually making a profit. In determining that intent orobjective, courts have looked to prices that an unlicensed seller charges for firearmsto determine if the principal objective of the seller is livelihood and profit. In somecases, prices reflect appreciation in actual market value resulting from having held a 6 DO I NEED A LICENSE TO BUY AND SELL FIREARMS?Guidance (continued)firearm as part of a collection, or reflect a profit intended to be used to acquireanother firearm as part of a collection. As a result, the fact that a transaction results ina profit for the seller is not always determinative.Finally, it is important to note that courts have found that you can buy and sellfirearms “with the principal objective of livelihood and profit” even if your firearmrelatedactivities are not your primary business. In other words, you can still be“engaged in the business of dealing in firearms with the principal objective oflivelihood and profit” if you have a full time job, and are buying and selling firearmsto supplement your income. ATF regulations specifically note that the term “dealer”includes a person who engages in such a business or occupation on a part-time basis.
    Now find something that relates to gunsmithing, not sales. Engraving firearms is gunsmithing.

  3. #18
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    Bottom line - consider the cost to obtain and renew an FFL vs the amount you will have to pay an attorney to defend your interpretation of the law. Whether you end up being right or wrong, you'll be money ahead if you just get the FFL.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kev Williams View Post
    his very expensive lawyer after scouring the *actual* laws on the books came to exactly the same conclusion
    The first three years of being an FFL will cost you about $200 then $90 per 3 years after that. How many decades of license renewals would just a single hour of "his very expensive lawyer" have paid for?

    Fill out the app and submit with your fee, then spend a couple of hours with your local agent for your interview, and you are absolutely legal, no uncertainty. The record keeping part is non-existent if you don't keep firearms overnight so your bound book will be empty. A single weeks worth of engraving covered the first $200 fee and I have zero time involved in paperwork. It's a pretty simple decision.

  5. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Hair View Post
    No. According to Federal Law you can only give, sell, or lend a firearm to anyone who can legally take possession of a firearm, someone who is not disqualified from possession or ownership of a firearm. This is true whether you are an FFL or not, same rules apply.
    You're disqualified from legal possession of a firearm?? Ok, well obviously that's not what I meant, so... I can hand a non-felon, non prohibited possessor a gun to borrow indefinitely, no?

  6. #21
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    Ok not sure how this will go over... I have a "friend" who is an FBI agent got his new glock with the fbi 50 year logo on it. Not getting into what was done but I had that gun in my possession for about a week. I am pretty sure if it was illegal I would not have been given his gun. So not sure if that helps any but that is my 2cents.
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  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craig Matheny View Post
    Ok not sure how this will go over... I have a "friend" who is an FBI agent got his new glock with the fbi 50 year logo on it. Not getting into what was done but I had that gun in my possession for about a week. I am pretty sure if it was illegal I would not have been given his gun. So not sure if that helps any but that is my 2cents.
    Your logic here works about the same as a previous post that stated something like "everybody else is doing it so it must be ok."

  8. #23
    My wife drives 10-15 over the limit everywhere, even with her cop friend in the car. Must be legal. I used to ride a motorcycle at ludicrous speeds following my friend who is a motorcycle cop. Must be legal.

  9. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Hair View Post
    Show me in writing where it says anything about "main source of income"

    This too

    FYI - "my" agent said that their office interprets "engaged in the business of" as anyone who takes money for services - period, no matter what amount or what percentage of your total business.
    18 US code 921 Definitions, subchapter 21, and in particular sections C and D:
    ~~~~~~~

    (21) The term “engaged in the business” means—

    (A) as applied to a manufacturer of firearms, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms manufactured;


    (B) as applied to a manufacturer of ammunition, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing ammunition as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the ammunition manufactured;


    (C) as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921(a)(11)(A), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms;

    (D)** as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921(a)(11)(B), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to engaging in such activity as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional repairs of firearms, or who occasionally fits special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms;

    (E) as applied to an importer of firearms, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to importing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms imported; and


    (F) as applied to an importer of ammunition, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to importing ammunition as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the ammunition imported.
    ~~~~~

    ** Just a note that Section D pertains to basic gunsmithing, which includes engraving-
    The "occasionally" reference in the law is very clear: if you're only gunsmithing or dealing occasionally (which I at least loosely interpret as 'not my main source of income'), then the terms "gunsmith" or "dealer" shall not include you. And if you're not, as defined by their own law, a gunsmith or dealer, then an FFL is a choice, not a requirement...
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  10. #25
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    None of that has anything to do with gunsmithing, it is all about manufacture and sales. If you want to relate it to gunsmithing then you'll need a definition of "occasional" to go along with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kev Williams View Post
    18 US code 921 Definitions, subchapter 21, and in particular sections C and D:
    ~~~~~~~

    (21) The term “engaged in the business” means—

    (A) as applied to a manufacturer of firearms, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms manufactured;


    (B) as applied to a manufacturer of ammunition, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing ammunition as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the ammunition manufactured;


    (C) as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921(a)(11)(A), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms;

    (D)** as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921(a)(11)(B), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to engaging in such activity as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional repairs of firearms, or who occasionally fits special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms;

    (E) as applied to an importer of firearms, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to importing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms imported; and


    (F) as applied to an importer of ammunition, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to importing ammunition as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the ammunition imported.
    ~~~~~

    ** Just a note that Section D pertains to basic gunsmithing, which includes engraving-
    The "occasionally" reference in the law is very clear: if you're only gunsmithing or dealing occasionally (which I at least loosely interpret as 'not my main source of income'), then the terms "gunsmith" or "dealer" shall not include you. And if you're not, as defined by their own law, a gunsmith or dealer, then an FFL is a choice, not a requirement...

  11. #26
    Outside my wheelhouse and above my pay grade, but out of curiosity took a look.

    One interpretation might be "gunsmithing" would apply to receiving parts from a dealer or manufacturer to fix or alter cosmetically (not including coatings). Engraving is specifically mentioned. Any SN or required marking must already be present from a manufacturer. No license is required outside of gunsmithing requirements.

    Engraving a SN or required marking is where the engraver would then be considered a manufacturer.

    18 U.S.C. 921(a)(21)(D) and 27 CFR 478.11

  12. #27
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    Carlos, it all depends on your state of residence. Washington and Oregon have laws now (and I expect Illinois and others on the left and right coasts) that are trying to prohibit you handing over a firearm to anyone without a background check both ways. That is Universal Background check fiasco.... But it is really irrelevant here. You are gunsmithing on a completed lower, maybe not on an 80%...... I'm working on doing some texturizing on 80% glocks. I would Never think to do it without an FFL
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  13. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Hair View Post
    None of that has anything to do with gunsmithing, it is all about manufacture and sales. If you want to relate it to gunsmithing then you'll need a definition of "occasional" to go along with it.
    This is as good as it gets for a description of 'gunsmithing'; section 11, (A) and (B):

    (11) The term “dealer” means (A) any person engaged in the business of selling firearms at wholesale or retail, (B) any person engaged in the business of repairing firearms or of making or fitting special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms, or (C) any person who is a pawnbroker. The term “licensed dealer” means any dealer who is licensed under the provisions of this chapter.

    -Subsection (B) clearly describes what a gunsmith does... and notice they also make a distinction between "dealer" and "licensed dealer"-

    The below words are all the definitions I could find in 18 U.S Code § 921:

    Person
    whoever
    interstate or foreign commerce
    firearm
    firearm muffler
    firearm silencer
    destructive device
    explosive
    bomb
    grenade
    propelled rocket
    explosive missile
    mine
    shotgun
    short barreled shotgun
    rifle
    short barreled rifle
    importer
    manufacturer
    dealer
    pawnbroker
    collector
    indictment
    crime punishable by imprisonment
    fugitive from justice
    antique firearm
    muzzle loading rifle
    ammunition
    armor piercing
    projectile
    full jacketed projectile
    armor piercing ammunition
    Attorney General
    published ordnance
    Federal offenses
    State offenses
    engaged in the business
    with the principle objective of livelihood and profit
    terrorism
    kidnapping
    machinegun
    school zone
    school
    handgun
    motor vehicle
    semiautomatic rifle
    intimate partner
    secure gun storage or safety device
    body armor
    ==========

    But- the words "gunsmith" and "gunsmithing" are nowhere to be found.

    FWIW I have no axe to grind here, I don't even engrave guns anymore. I'm just an old fart who enjoys taking time to actually read the laws that I've been accused of breaking... (don't get me started on trademark law )
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  14. #29
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    This isn't going to make me any friends here, but it needs to be said...
    This thread is too funny!!!!!! I really had no idea that so many of you where closet lawyers. Very laughable!!!!
    Bottom line why tight rope or work the loop holes in yours or someone elses interpretation of the law? I'm loosing no sleep when I for example slap a serial number on an 80% & my customers could care less either.
    Why is it so mind numbing difficult for people to just get an FFL if they need it and follow simple instructions of those looking over their shoulder (local ATF agent)? Why second guess, why look for loop holes, why defend stupid positions? As I stated before, even if I'm right and the ATF agent is wrong, I'm not going to waste my time & money to fight it.
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  15. #30
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    Another note, Midway USA is now selling 80% kits for Glock handguns. No SN and all the included drills and milling bits you might need. Now that does not include the internals, or the slide or the barrel and by the time you add all that in... you have the price of a new handgun or more. But if your a felon or someone else prohibited from purchasing a handgun, there you go.

    Reason #1 for me not having a FFL is running my business out of my home, means the ATF can come anytime day or night for an Inspection, and #2 I would also need to get a permit from the city for that gun business and that's not going to happen.
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