Novice looking for commercial production advise on sanders, edge gluing

[Darcy Warner]

I have a feeling he is just using some 1x4 from off the shelf somewhere.

[Ryan Mooney]

There's a local place to me that rents time on a wide belt for really low hourly rates. You might try shopping that part around and see what you can find. The guy by me has been there since forever and I lived down the road for a solid 8-9 years before I found out he was there (we're not in that large of a town either).

[Dave Cav]

My advice would be to forget the Timesavers and drum sanders. Timesavers are normally used hard and by the time they hit the used market they can be pretty beat up, they are very complicated and expensive to rebuild, and some of the pneumatic and electronic parts might be difficult to find. Widebelt sanders are generally the most complicated stationary tool you normally encounter (unless you're running a multi head moulder or a big CNC setup) and they can be difficult to set up and operate.

I have a general aversion to drum sanders, even double drum sanders. They are slow and fussy to change grits, and sand much slower than a widebelt. A lot of people here are very happy with theirs, but I had a Woodmaster and didn't care for it.

My recommendation (since I have had one for several years now) would be a new Safety Speed Cut widebelt. They are relatively inexpensive, simple to operate, adjust and repair and don't have a bunch of proprietary parts. Safety Speed is still in business and has pretty good customer support. I would imagine the Grizzly widebelts are probably fine, too.

Don't forget dust collection. A widebelt sander (or drum sander) MUST be run with dust collection, and they generate a LOT of sawdust. A cyclone setup is a good idea. Widebelts and drum sanders, in a production environment, are hard on dust collector filters.

Widebelt sanders also need compressed air, so you'll need a compressor, too.

[Mark Bolton]

I spoke to a couple panel manufacturers early in my process, and they couldn't touch the price I am producing them for.

I find it hard to believe you cant buy these cheaper even if the manufactured panels are larger than you need an you have some waste. You can buy glued up 4/4 pine shelves at the home center for less than one could buy the raw material for and that doesnt take into account glue, abrasives, tooling, and so on.

For instance we often get requests for thick maple slab counter tops. I simply cant buy the material for what I can buy them for complete.

May be worth some deeper investigation. For instance we can source 18" x 36" x 3/4" thick pine glue ups for $12.00 in small quantities. Thats 2.66/ square foot. We couldnt bring the material in house, surface, glue up, flatten, sand, for that. Not even close.

You might look around your area for some wholesale distribution if you are using any of these in quantity. I'd bet you could knock the numbers way down from there.

[Ryan Martz]

Thanks again for all the good advise guys!

To address a few more questions here:

1- What type and how many clamps to make your current 20-30 pieces a day?
- We are currently just using pipe clamps. However, since we are currently just using 1x12s, the clamping process and getting them lined up straight has been pretty easy. However, we just tried to clamp up the same size using 1x4s and it was a damn disaster, haha. These pine boards were all sorts on wonky. The bar clamps did an ok job, but I either need a lot of downward pressure, or much straighter boards. I worry long term about continuing to use 1x12s because I dont want my pieces cupping a lot over time.
2- Will that 20-30 of these pieces a day increase?
- I plan (and hope) this number will increase steadily over the next couple years. I wouldn't be surprised if it doubled by this time next year.
3- How do you prepare the edges of the 1x4's now?
- Right now we are using 1x12s and not preparing the edges at all. A rep from JLT recommended using a rip saw to rip down 12" boards to 4", therefore likely giving me straighter 1x4s and also giving them a live edge at the same time.
4- Can you use 1x10's?
- I could use any size. I guess the idea would be weighing easy of glue ups vs eventual cupping.
5- Do you fill around knots or select for smooth, sandable knots.
- I do not fill around knots. With the work that I am doing, it is only necessary to sand the knots down smooth, along with any ridges.
6- How do you get your stock. Delivered units or pick through stacks?
- I get stock delivered from Home Depot (I know, I know). However, I usually order pallets full, and from what I understand it is all distributed thorough US Lumber.

As for finding a premade disturber I am all ears. I have made a ton of calls, but just can't seem to find anyone willing to do it for what it is currently costing me. For example, I am getting 1x12's for about $1.10/ft. So if I wanted to make a piece that was 22.5 (2 panels) x 38", I would only be in about $7 on material. If I can get the edge gluing, clamping, and sanding down to just a couple minutes of labor using good machinery, I would think it'd save a ton of money over time. But then again that could be the novice in me with the rose colored glasses.

[Brian Holcombe]

A few minutes sounds very optimistic. IMO, you should calculate the cost of operating your shop for an hour and figure out what it really costs you to make a panel. Typically big industry setup to make certain things makes them at incredibly competitive prices.

[Kevin Jenness]

Ryan,

I mean no offense, but you really should do some homework on basic lumber processing before investing in more machinery. I would strongly recommend outsourcing while you study up. Gluing up Home Despot 1x12's of unknown moisture content and factory edges is inviting a world of misery.

[Marc Jeske]

Ryan - What if - You could get delivered to your door edge glued sanded to 23/32" Finland Pine/ spruce KD to about 10-12% made of approx 3" continuous 96" strips ( no fingerjoint) ripped to your width from 48x96 panels, for $2.20 / bd/sq ft ?

I have first time ordered just such a thing arriving in a few days.

5 - 4x8 sheets, ripped to 29 and 19, supposedly delivered via Fedex ground in 4 packages @ 70 lb each.

$350 total, 48 states I understand.

Larger quty discount may be possible.

We'll see how they look.

Don't want to say more till I see and work with it.

Marc

[Marc Jeske]

And also keep in mind your HD Borg or almost anyplace else Pine will be up to about "19%"

Marc

[Marc Jeske]

There's a local place to me that rents time on a wide belt for really low hourly rates. You might try shopping that part around and see what you can find. The guy by me has been there since forever and I lived down the road for a solid 8-9 years before I found out he was there (we're not in that large of a town either).

Definately a good possibility.

Just make sure before you bet on a long term quote, that he realizes its NOT KD nor pitch set... Belts sanding Pine do not last.

Marc

[Rick Fisher]

I have a 37" Houfek Buldog 3 wide belt, its about 9 months old. Prior to this I had a 2001 SCM Sandya .. Simple wide belt sanders are really not that complicated.. Strip the sheet metal off and most things make sense. To own machinery like this means you need to own a meter and a good set of wrenches.. If you don't like trouble shooting and pulling wrenches, don't buy industrial machinery ..

On a used wide belt, look at the conveyor belt.. I would rather replace a main motor than a conveyor .. They also go hard and the material slips.. You can condition them which makes them thinner.. So check the thickness of the conveyor.

Drum sanders are nice for hobby work but not for production. They do an inferior job to a wide belt. My Houfek has an anti dubbing feature that raises and lower the platen so it doesn't round the edges of veneers or soft wood.. It works on timing.. and I also ordered it with Variable feed speed.... Those two features don't work well together .... lol..

A production sander needs a platen .. I wouldn't hesitate to buy a used sander if the conveyor was in good shape and I could see it run ..

[Mark Bolton]

As for finding a premade disturber I am all ears. I have made a ton of calls, but just can't seem to find anyone willing to do it for what it is currently costing me. For example, I am getting 1x12's for about $1.10/ft. So if I wanted to make a piece that was 22.5 (2 panels) x 38", I would only be in about $7 on material. If I can get the edge gluing, clamping, and sanding down to just a couple minutes of labor using good machinery, I would think it'd save a ton of money over time. But then again that could be the novice in me with the rose colored glasses.

Thats about 1.20/sq' and no labor. No driving after material, no unloading material, no cutting up material, glueing it up, cleanup, sand paper, and so on.

You can buy pre-laid up shelves at the home center one at a time for 2$ a foot. If you were to purchase in bulk I would imagine you would get that far far below the cost of all the equipment your looking at. Have you done the math on the amortization of cost of the equipment, operating cost, labor, depreciation, as opposed to buying panels? I cant imagine it would be a profitable endeavor even at paying 80 cents a foot more buying retail.

If your in business you should be able to contact some local distribution and possibly get pointed in the right direction but I would imagine youd be looking at unit quantities at the minimum.

Just my .02

[Marc Jeske]

The problem w the panels from BORG - Fast growth South America warm weather fast growth low density, and inconsistent quality glue joints.

May also be from other "offshore" producers.

Also, vendor sources will vary unknown, quality may vary even more due to that.

They look good.. but start to work w them and you will see the quality is not there.

Snap a crosscut over workbench edge, usually the glue joint will fail.

Lastly, be aware most, not all, but most have if not zipper fingerjoints,butt joints. may not be acceptable for stain grade uses.

Now, possibly for wall art panels like the OP said, vs structural furniture, they may be OK.

Depending on what part of USA, panels from Greenwood Forest Products (NO fingerjoints) may be available, Lowe's is their main retailer,but much more $ than foreign. ($4/ ft in link below)

Their panels made in BC, CA are very good, but be aware they also distribute Romanian panels.. I have no experience with those.

And, like all commercial made panels, come in just a few widths.

My supplier I am waiting for (in above post) will custom rip 48" panels to any widths, w purchase as small as five full sheets.

Marc

https://gfp.bc.ca/

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Greenwood-F...ard/1000340137

[Mark Bolton]

The problem w the panels from BORG - Fast growth South America warm weather fast growth low density, and inconsistent quality glue joints.

I have no idea what the end product is the OP is making but I cant imagine its anything critical edge gluing two home center 1x12s together but have no idea.

[Marc Jeske]

I have no idea what the end product is the OP is making but I cant imagine its anything critical edge gluing two home center 1x12s together but have no idea.

True, I was giving info that may make a difference to others reading.

I guess it goes back to if he wants to play with the entire glue up process, or if they have enough business doing the Art portion.

I assume OP knows to paint both sides w his base coats at least.

Marc

Marc