Novice looking for commercial production advise on sanders, edge gluing

[Ryan Martz]

I am relatively new to woodworking (less than 1 year), so I don't mind asking dumb questions.

I have a business where we make artwork using edge-glued 1x4 ponderosa pine boards. Usually our pieces are roughly 21" x 31.5" x 3/4" or 31.5" x 42" x 3/4". Right now we are just edge gluing them using standard bar clamps then sanding them smooth with an orbital hand sander. We usually make about 20-30 of these pieces a day. After we sand these flat, we give them a coat of pant then put our artwork on them.

Here are my questions:

1) Obviously this process is taking forever and needs to be improved. I have been looking at different sanders and would like to get one wide enough that I can get most of my pieces through. Since we are painting it and not staining, I don't need it perfectly smooth. What I do need is for any ridges from the edge gluing to be flat as well as any texture on the knots. In a perfect world, I could accomplish this in a single pass. I cannot afford to have to pass this through a sander 7 or 8 times. Only one side needs to be sanded.

I have narrowed my purchase down to either a used 37" double wide belt sander (Timesaver from probably the '80s) for $5k, a used single 51" wide belt sander (Timesaver from the late '90s) for about $12k, a new 37" Timesaver Speedsander for $10k, or a new 37" Grizzly double drum sander for $5k. I don't mind spending a little more if it accomplishes getting these pieces through in 1 or 2 passes. My worry with the new speed sander is that it only has a 10hp motor. My concern with the drum sander is that is could be inconsistent. I really, really, appreciate any advise you veterans can give me on this. I don't want to spend $10k on a piece of equipment to have it not accomplish my goal.

2) I am needing to also upgrade my edge gluing system. I have been looking at the JLT systems, but am concerned that they will not be smooth enough because there is no downward pressure. The pieces will be too wide to send through a planer, so consistency is very important. I have also wondered getting several Plano clamps. They seem to offer multiple-directional clamping, but may also take longer to get the pieces into position. Any feedback on this?

Thanks again in advance everyone and I look forward to your feedback!

- Ryan

[Steve Peterson]

Welcome to the Creek.

Is there a reason that you have to make your own large panels? It sounds like most of the value added is in the artwork. Lots of companies with automated assembly lines can make the panels. Why compete with them using manual labor?

You may even be able to buy ready made tabletop size panels at Home Depot or Lowes, although you might get better prices by going directly to the source.

[Kevin Jenness]

That is quite a range of machinery and a small budget. I would recommend a wide belt over a drum sander and a two or three head over a single head. If you don't need the extra width, don't pay for it. A two head wide enough for any of your pieces would be a far better choice than a wide single head unit. You should be looking at 20hp for a single head machine. You may need to upgrade your dust collection. Bear in mind that used sanders can be fraught with problems- you may find a good deal, but if you are not familiar with the machine type you are looking at it would pay to buy from a reputable dealer willing to stand behind the machine or at least get a qualified tech to go over your prospect in detail. If you have the business to justify a wide belt, a good one will pay for itself in short order. There is a wealth of good info on widebelts at the Surfprep website.

Have you considered using a different material such as a panel product or wider material for glueups with fewer joints? Another option is to sub out your substrate production if you don't currently have the capital to make doing it yourself optimally efficient.

[Matt Day]

Think out of the box too.

Do you need to be using solid wood? Would plywood suffice since it’s being painted?

Are you using anything to align the boards during glueup? If not that would help reduce sanding.

And sourcing out the panels would likely be the best way to go. There’s a lot of labor to be saved by not glueing up all those panels by hand.

[Steve Jenkins]

Go to the jlt website and look at their pneumatic panel flattener. A friend of mine has one along with a 12’ 5 or 6 level rack. Works really well.

[Ryan Martz]

Wow, thanks for all the great feedback everyone!

Steve - We have a lot of different sizes and continue to evolve the product. I think once we get our system down, we should be able to produce them pretty cheap with in house labor. I spoke to a couple panel manufacturers early in my process, and they couldn't touch the price I am producing them for.

Kevin - Good points about just getting a new unit with a warranty. My budget isn't necessarily small, I just would prefer to find the middle ground on all new stuff compared to much cheaper used stuff. I mean, I'd be fine spending $30k or $40k on machines if I KNEW that it would be the perfect set up. Part of my rationale is that if I buy middle of the road pieces, that if it ends up not being correct for my ultimate operation, I won't be out as much money.

Matt - For my particular artwork, I 100% have to use solid wood. It doesn't have to be "good" wood, it just has to be a cheap soft wood. For example, ponderosa and eastern white pine has been the best wood while souther yellow tends to be too hard.

Steve #2 - I have looked at that panel flattener and it seems pretty often. When I spoke to JLT, they actually started talking me out of it since the wood I am using is so thin and soft that he deemed it kind of unnecessary.

[Ryan Martz]

If I do go the "new" route, this is what I'm thinking:

Wide Belt: https://www.grizzly.com/products/37-...t-Sander/H2934
Jointer (not currently using one): https://www.grizzly.com/products/6-B...tterhead/G0821
Dust Collector (currently using a 2HP Harbor Freight): https://www.grizzly.com/products/5-H...ollector/G0672
Edge Glue: http://jltclamps.com/8ft_pc

I think this should pretty well cover what I am trying to do, and still cost only around $20k. Thoughts?

[Brian Holcombe]

I usually approach this type of work by first building panels, then jointing/planing them, then making larger panels. The smaller of your sizes can fit though a 620mm planer, so thats where I would head with that, it would save considerable money over running a wide belt to make that panel (In my opinion).

The 31.5" version I would make out of two 16" pieces, join the together and then rip down to final size.

With S2S, I would edge joint the boards, then plane to width (not to thickness) to get a parallel board, then glue up to make 16" panels. I would take those 16" panels, face joint them.

I would then join on another board (perhaps source 1x5 for this) which was face jointed. Assemble so that the joint is accurately seamed. Put the final assembly through the planer using the jointed face as a reference, flip to clean up and bring to final size. Rip to width with a machine capable of a finished cut. Cut to length. done.

For the wide ones, two of those 16" wide assemblies would thickness planed, then jointed together. Touch up the joint with a sander, rip to size, cut to length.

If your careful about grain direction in your glue up, you can get perfect finishes out of the planer.

[Bradley Gray]

I would add a glue spreader. I have this one. Black Bros make a small powered one also. Saves a lot of time and helps put the right amount in place.

[John Kee]

If I do go the "new" route, this is what I'm thinking:

Wide Belt: https://www.grizzly.com/products/37-...t-Sander/H2934
Jointer (not currently using one): https://www.grizzly.com/products/6-B...tterhead/G0821
Dust Collector (currently using a 2HP Harbor Freight): https://www.grizzly.com/products/5-H...ollector/G0672
Edge Glue: http://jltclamps.com/8ft_pc

I think this should pretty well cover what I am trying to do, and still cost only around $20k. Thoughts?

No problem with the Grizzly widebelt but depending on how continuous you are going to be running the unit, the dust collector you have chosen could be problematic especially with plugging the bags with sticky pine sawdust. If running continuous a unit with air pulse cleaning should be considered. The rated CFM is really deceiving too especially when you look at the fan curve in the manual. I also don't know what you are trying to do with a tabletop 6" jointer and no planer, personally I would suggest looking at a minimum of 8" to 12" full size jointer with a separate full size planer or jointer/planer combo.

[Darcy Warner]

I don't know, rip saw, clamp rack, wide planer, possibly a stroke sander instead of a widebelt (yes I know, archaic)

I don't see the point of a jointer for that work if you have a dialed in rip saw.

[Patrick Kane]

I am late to the party, but i agree with people pushing you away from the sander. From my side hustle experience, flattening/fixing a glued panel is closing the barn door after the horse got out. What is the discrepancy in your panel glueups? Are they flat? IMO, a drum sander would be enormously disappointing. I think you would be much better served with a 24" planer and a DF500. For the glue ups that are 31" wide, make sub assemblies and join them for the final glueup with the domino. With 2-3 dominoes across that 45" joint, you might be left with 1/32" discrepancy to sand away. It is more labor, but it seems like you have relatively inexpensive labor. Operating efficiency experts might be able to justify the $20,000 sander investment over the course of 5-10 years, but i think you will see a huge spike in efficiency just by adding a 24" planer. 24" machines are pretty common on the used market, and are typically very inexpensive. Ive seen powermatics at auction less than a grand, and I guarantee if i looked for 5-10 mins, i could send you a list of a dozen SCMI planers for $4,000+/-. I cant imagine ROS sanding panels flat if they had 1/16-1/8" discrepancies. Even with a rotex, i would want to shoo myself.

[Andrew Joiner]

Ryan I have a few questions.
1- What type and how many clamps to make your current 20-30 pieces a day?
2- Will that 20-30 of these pieces a day increase?
3- How do you prepare the edges of the 1x4's now?
4- Can you use 1x10's?
5- Do you fill around knots or select for smooth, sandable knots.
6- How do you get your stock. Delivered units or pick through stacks?

[johnny means]

How about using some type of joinery. A tongue and groove would leave you with nearly leveled joints. It's also cheap and easy to set up.

[J.R. Rutter]

A planer / sander, like a Timesavers, would be ideal for what you want to do. They do pop up used from time to time and have a 36" (or whatever width) helical planer head followed by a combi sanding head that would give two contact points. For example: http://360degreemachinery.com/?p=12905

For a clamp, I was going to suggest a used RF gluer but they seem to be priced at a high premium these days. I got a used Rosenquist EG400 for under $10k delivered years ago. They flatten, clamp, and cure panels in under a minute per piece. Let them sit overnight to fully dry out and plane/sand/size the next day.

Agree that you can forget the jointer - they can do more harm than good for panel glue-ups. I would order ripped parallel edge lumber just glue from that if your supplier can rip to order so the edges are fresh (not oxidized by time).