Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 16

Thread: I stink at color matching.....

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Conway, Arkansas
    Posts
    13,181

    I stink at color matching.....

    And I wished I knew more about color matching. Very frustrating to me to spend so much time and money on materials to not even get close to the real color. How are you at color matching? What lessons can you share with me so I can be better at it.??
    Thanks & Happy Wood Chips,
    Dennis -
    Get the Benefits of Being an SMC Contributor..!
    ....DEBT is nothing more than yesterday's spending taken from tomorrow's income.

  2. #2
    It can be quite straight forward, but takes some experimentation.

    I like dye from WD Lockwood. I purchased a sampler set of 5 dyes. I mixed up liquid concentrates from the powder, and blended them at different ratios to hone in on the match. The problem is that some dyes do alter color over time - as does the underlying wood. I 'matched' two or three pieces to an Ethan Allen finish. While the other pieces have shifted over 5 years, the color is still close enough that nobody but me notices in the strongest of light.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    SE PA - Central Bucks County
    Posts
    65,685
    I agree with Prashun...trial and error with identical material to the project is essential and you have to not just do the dye/stain, but also the subsequent finish steps to at least the first coat of whatever goes on last. The "clears" also alter the color...
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  4. #4
    Dennis,

    I understand your frustration. When I was trying to use oil stains and Minwax color charts, etc. it was very frustrating. Also, as Prashun said, sometimes the hue changes after the stain dries. It will also change slightly when the finish goes on. I bought a "Finishers Color Wheel", I think from Highland Woodworking. Amazon has them also. (See picture). As you will see, most of the color names are classic colors like raw and burt umber, etc. So those are the colors that I most often use.

    Regarding tints, I use Trans Tint for water or alcohol based and UTC pigments for oil based. One more thing. If you can get close, you can tone the finish with diluted Polyshades or tinted shellac. Shellac is great over varnish for toning because you can wipe it off (preferably before it starts to dry) if you don't like it. However, two coats of tinted shellac toner is asking for trouble because the coats will run together.

    Beyond that level, I think that you should consider spraying.

    Doug
    Finishers Color Wheel.jpg
    Last edited by Doug Hepler; 03-20-2018 at 7:13 PM.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    WNY
    Posts
    9,647
    Color matching takes patience, perseverance, and taking good notes. It also helps to study Flexner's, Jewitt's, or some other book by an expert to see how they go about it. You will soon realize there are pretty simple processes, and some very complicated ones. Which you need to use depends upon what you are trying to match, and you need to really study a piece to figure that out. It's more than just getting the color right; you have to get the look right, too. Maybe it's just a dye or stain and a topcoat. That's challenging enough, but still pretty simple. Other times, it might involve a dye, sealer, stain, sealer, glaze or toner, sealer, topcoats.

    Natural light is your friend. Trying to color match in artificial light is exceptionally hard. If you must, get lighting with a temperature rating that simulates daylight.

    John

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Location
    Tasmania
    Posts
    2,162
    The ether just swallowed my detailed reply so it was obviously lies...! Briefly, get your base colour reasonably close and then modify with primary colours. The essential ones are bright red, bright green, black and yellow. Red counteracts green. Green counteracts red. Black darkens everything but turns towards purple while doing it.

    Analyse your sample first for clarity as well as colour. Dyes will match a clean, bright colour. Pigments will match a less translucent colour.

    Stain to the approximate colour. The closer you get, the less work later.

    Apply 2 coats of polish so you can see where your colour it at.

    Make up a toner with lot of solvent, a small amount of polish, a touch of your base stain and a spot of whatever primary colours you need to get the correct result. Apply it as required till it matches.

    Don't sand.

    Apply a clear coat

    Light sand and apply final coat.

    Pick a range of stains that you like to work with and stick with them. Its the only way to get good at using them. Branch out later when the skills are improved. Allow yourself time to build the skills required. Colour and finishing is a combination of skills building a 3 dimensional enhancement of the timber.

    Stain colour is only visibly accurate for a few seconds after application. As it dries it greys off.

    Human skin is a good neutral background for colour checking even under artificial light. Take that how you want.

    Vertical surfaces appear darker than horizontal surfaces because of light angle.

    End grain stains darker than long grain so use different sanding grades to get different textures on the timber. Fine sanding stains lighter than coarser sanding.

    Better get back to work especially since this is my second go at this. Cheers
    Last edited by Wayne Lomman; 03-21-2018 at 12:17 AM. Reason: More bad ether vibes
    Every construction obeys the laws of physics. Whether we like or understand the result is of no interest to the universe.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Dublin, CA
    Posts
    4,119
    Quote Originally Posted by John TenEyck View Post
    Natural light is your friend. Trying to color match in artificial light is exceptionally hard. If you must, get lighting with a temperature rating that simulates daylight.
    Two comments:

    1. The phenomenon you allude to is called metamerism, and occurs when a pair of colors match under one illuminant and not another. Metamerism can only happen when the non-matching objects have colorants with different spectra, so one way to limit the likelihood of metamerism is to use the same dyes/pigments for everything, and only tweak ratios as needed. The fact that the wood contributes multiple spectra of its own (for extractives vs fibers for example) means that you can never totally avoid divergence, but if you try to match, say, a pigment with a dye then you're just asking for trouble. Typical staining pigments also tend to have more gradual, metamerism-resistant spectra than bright dyes btw.

    2. The best illuminant to use when matching is the one that you expect will be used to view the furniture. Daylight-balanced illumination makes the finisher's job seem easier, because daylight has a very broad spectrum that tends to minimize the impact of differences in colorant spectra, but if the piece will be evaluated under something else then you're just fooling yourself. Some fluorescents are so nasty that it's basically a lost cause, of course (the technical issue is that non-balanced fluorescents emit very "peaky" light with a lot of energy at a few discrete wavelengths, so even a small difference in colorants can cause a large perceived color shift).

    -- Patrick, who did imaging/color professionally in between mechanical engineering and software.
    Last edited by Patrick Chase; 03-21-2018 at 4:05 AM.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Location
    Tasmania
    Posts
    2,162
    Interesting insight, Patrick. As one who has worked at colour matching timber, I have mostly had less than ideal conditions for doing this work. It has always come back to doing the job consistently. I have always colour match in the same location in any given shop. I have found that evenly distributed light is far preferable to strong directional light.

    The comment Patrick made about trying to match pigments and dyes is very true. Each type of stain is for a different purpose and produce different effects. Pigment, dye, spirit, toner etc etc can all have the same name but are all different tools in the toolbox. Names mean nothing. My favoured stain colour is called 4474. It is a basic brown with no yellow in the formula. I modify it from there to get what I want and that covers a surprisingly wide colour range.

    The best lighting I have used is an array of fluorescents with a mix of available shades of white in equal proportions, but whatever you have, pick a spot you like in the shop and adapt your techniques to that spot using a consistent range of colours. You will get better at it with each job. The hardest bit is to read the applied colour quickly before it greys off. Cheers

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    North Prairie, WI
    Posts
    222
    I can only dream of being able to do that sort of thing. I am considered severely color blind; both red/green and blue/yellow. As a result, I don't have a clue how colors match or don't match. I try to avoid staining anything, if possible, to minimize the risk of things looking "wrong." It affects many areas of life; for example, I'm so easily able to entertain my lovely bride. She took great joy in my misery as I tried to help repaint a wall in our bedroom last weekend. It used to be "Dusty Rose." We were painting it "Moss Lake." I, of course, couldn't tell the difference between the colors, so I couldn't tell where I had painted and where I hadn't. My wife was amused as I apparently left a large section unpainted.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Conway, Arkansas
    Posts
    13,181
    Most times, what I'm faced with is this, I get a piece of furniture that is 60-90 years old. It has to be repaired as well as make a new part or two to replace something that is broken. I don't have access to all the woods that are a near exact match to what the pieces were made from, so I choose one and try to match a color. Dinning room chairs or antique chairs are common things brought to me. Why? I don't know. I'm not really good at repairing chairs.
    So...I don't know what the original finish was, I don't know what the original wood colorant was, all I do know is that I have to come close to matching the color.
    Thanks & Happy Wood Chips,
    Dennis -
    Get the Benefits of Being an SMC Contributor..!
    ....DEBT is nothing more than yesterday's spending taken from tomorrow's income.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    SE PA - Central Bucks County
    Posts
    65,685
    What you describe is "normal" for this kind of work. Hence, the experimentation with the same wood you'll use to make the new part(s) to come up with a schedule that will get you "close". Sometimes, you'll be close enough to even get "the cigar".
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    WNY
    Posts
    9,647
    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Peacock View Post
    Most times, what I'm faced with is this, I get a piece of furniture that is 60-90 years old. It has to be repaired as well as make a new part or two to replace something that is broken. I don't have access to all the woods that are a near exact match to what the pieces were made from, so I choose one and try to match a color. Dinning room chairs or antique chairs are common things brought to me. Why? I don't know. I'm not really good at repairing chairs.
    So...I don't know what the original finish was, I don't know what the original wood colorant was, all I do know is that I have to come close to matching the color.

    "
    Why? I don't know. I'm not really good at repairing chairs."



    One of our competitors once told me "We don't have to be the best, just a little better than you." You might not think you are good at repairing chairs, but you must be better than anyone else in your area.

    John

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Encinitas, CA
    Posts
    671
    This is certainly a bit of overkill....
    I run a Furniture Medic Franchise. Part of the required tools is a Ready to Match System from General finishes. The kit has ~10-12 base stains and a box with ~160 wood samples. Each sample is maple on one side adn oak on the other. The sample has a sticker with a formula for making that color. If you have a Refinisher, Furniture Medic and/or a Woodcraft store in your area you may be able to check it out. I've matched color for people for their own use bu tit's pretty rare since It's not really part of my business. I use my Local Woodcraft for some supplies when I can (They don't sell Ready to match products though) and I get a lot of referrals from my store. Anyway, just a thought.

    I will also say that practice, especially with a color wheel will halp you visualize the basic color components of a stain and allow you to get really close. It took me over a year and I'm still improving.
    Gary

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Location
    Tasmania
    Posts
    2,162
    No, not overkill at all. It's basic, traditional knowledge that has existed way longer than any of us. If there is a system that makes it easier, that's good to hear. Cheers

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Conway, Arkansas
    Posts
    13,181
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Muto View Post
    This is certainly a bit of overkill....
    I run a Furniture Medic Franchise. Part of the required tools is a Ready to Match System from General finishes. The kit has ~10-12 base stains and a box with ~160 wood samples. Each sample is maple on one side adn oak on the other. The sample has a sticker with a formula for making that color. If you have a Refinisher, Furniture Medic and/or a Woodcraft store in your area you may be able to check it out. I've matched color for people for their own use bu tit's pretty rare since It's not really part of my business. I use my Local Woodcraft for some supplies when I can (They don't sell Ready to match products though) and I get a lot of referrals from my store. Anyway, just a thought.

    I will also say that practice, especially with a color wheel will halp you visualize the basic color components of a stain and allow you to get really close. It took me over a year and I'm still improving.
    Gary,
    I found the wood sample (98 in a box) and the base stains. The total kit would be about $600. A bit high for someone like me that does this like once every few years. Maybe I can buy a base stain every month until I get all of them collected.
    Thanks & Happy Wood Chips,
    Dennis -
    Get the Benefits of Being an SMC Contributor..!
    ....DEBT is nothing more than yesterday's spending taken from tomorrow's income.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •