First time with card scrapers and water stones, not what I expected at any point

[lowell holmes]

I use one of these. They are indestructible.eze-lap317920.jpg

[Robin Dobbie]

...round your ends if you want but I think this might just encourage the wrong technique and using more force than is called for and especially, use no force to set your burr! Not to be discouraging by any means, but I'm afraid, based on what I have seen that gets widely dished out as advise and schooling, that it is an up-hill battle for you unless you are able to tune into the essentials of the matter.

It seems to me that the force required... is what it is, for lack of a better phrase. It takes a certain force at least to bend the scraper, and to get it to bite, and have long, continuous strokes without skipping. I tried using less force on the wood, but when I do it seems I'm more likely to chatter across the surface. Seems raw wood is easier, but I was scraping some kind of film finish off of some kind of Asian hardwood.

This may seem scandalous, but I often use a card scraper with a filed edge.

That doesn't seem scandalous at all. I think the surface I'm getting is far smoother than it even needs to be, and I just used a 1000 stone. It's amazing to look at and it's a great first-impression of what a card scraper is capable of, but I was thinking how useless its smoothness is. I'm struggling to grasp why anyone does the 4000 or 8000 stone. Don't you need a rougher surface for a finish or even glue?

Hi Robin,


Personally, I don't use stones on scrapers, only a file. I don't use them for scraping finish, so for me, edge quality isn't that important.

Yeah I think I'll still rough up the surface with 220 before I apply another finish. I don't really see a way around that because the surface just seems too smooth and hard, still. I am scraping, not burnishing, I am getting wispy shavings of what I think is all wood.

If I do need a finer edge, I usually use a diamond "credit card" on them.

What grit diamond sharpener?

Also, after I figured out how to use the scraper, I found out that I had some unrealistic expectations about it based on magazine articles (this was before the internet), like how long an edge would last, and that you still can get tear out.

I was glad I had done both long edges on both scrapers because it took all of them to get 10ft of finish removed. I'm thinking I'll order more scrapers just to have more ready. And yeah, I was getting random tear out. Smooth wood before and after, but random hairy areas. Still had to bust out the sand paper. And I'll of course sand the whole thing at 220, and 220 - 400 between coats of finish.

[John C Cox]

Robin,

if you leave the file clamped in the vise or the stone on the bench... Refreshing the edge burrs takes less than 2 minutes if you use a burnisher... Flip the edge to the next pne the second it starts to dull... Then resharpen as soon as you get through the 4 edges.. You will find the whole scraping job will go much faster because your tool is always good and sharp and cuts very fast - you don't try to scrape another foot or 2 on a half-dull scraper....

[Pete Taran]

Agree with the posters who say file and burnish. Takes 2 minutes. Working for 20 minutes on waterstones is a ridiculous waste of time. Think about what you are doing. Would be like putting a crazy sharp edge on a plane iron and then rubbing a screwdriver on it. All that time sharpening is wasted. File and turn. If you are feeling extravagant, rub the three sides (two faces and edge) on a fine india stone and then turn. You will never see the difference and value for all that waterstone work. Try it and see.

[Robin Dobbie]

I use shapton Pro to sharpen my card scrapers. Crown card scrapers should be the right hardness. I generally mark the entire edge with a marker. Then butt the scraper to something square and sharpen it on the stone. Once the marker is gone from the edge I move to the next stone. I end at 8000 then I will use a burnisher to roll the edge.


If this is the first time, the edge is serrated from machining I would use a file with fine teeth to remove the rough serrations then move to the stones.

Have you ever experienced grooving with your stones when flattening a scraper?


Do you experience a difference between just burnishing at 1000 vs going on to 8000?

OP: There is a report the card scrapers are too hard:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-r...SIN=B001V9KODW


Try Lee Valley scrapers. I use them often and they work fine.

Yeah that's the review I saw that made me wonder if it was me or the scrapers. The scrapers didn't leave gouges in the chisels, but there was a visible mark. Couldn't feel anything, however.

Was this the first time you worked the scraper in question?


If so then you were taking out the manufacturer's machining marks and geometry errors, that that sometimes takes a *lot* of material removal.


When I commission a new scraper I usually start with the biggest nastiest bastard file in my collection (or maybe a belt grinder) and work down from there. A 1K waterstone isn't the right tool for the job.

First time with any scrapers. I think you're right. I should have filed them, first.

Bahcos are also extremely good: https://www.amazon.com/Bahco-6-Inch-...YR9N77C9Z12QT6


It's unfortunate that Crown are selling over-hard scrapers, when you consider that their burnisher is soft as putty.

I see those reccomended a lot I'll try em.

Hi,
Before re-engineering your procedure, I think you should consider buying a Bahco 474 card scraper and having another go. It will cost you less than $10 and you can use the link Patrick provided if you're an Amazon fan, or if you like Highland Woodworking, they sell it too: https://www.highlandwoodworking.com/...rdscraper.aspx


This is the tried and true card scraper that used to go under the name Sandvik before Bahco purchased them. The entire prep should take you less than 5-10 minutes. I think the video of William Ng demonstrating preparation and use is very good. Sounds like you've already seen it.


I think it's worth getting a burnisher. I have the Hock burnisher.


Edwin

I see the Hock's recommended in a few videos I saw. I think I could even save a couple bucks and make my own handle. I don't know, the chisels are harder than the cards, so I may stick with that method for a while.

Agree with the posters who say file and burnish. Takes 2 minutes. Working for 20 minutes on waterstones is a ridiculous waste of time. Think about what you are doing. Would be like putting a crazy sharp edge on a plane iron and then rubbing a screwdriver on it. All that time sharpening is wasted. File and turn. If you are feeling extravagant, rub the three sides (two faces and edge) on a fine india stone and then turn. You will never see the difference and value for all that waterstone work. Try it and see.

I'm finding it hard to imagine that you're wrong, but so many people go to 4000, 8000. One of the few reasons I can fathom people might go through the effort is the idea that a finer edge lasts longer. I've heard people adamantly claim just the opposite. I really don't know either way. Is it difficult to objectivly measure both theories? Surely someone has at least tried. I suppose it may be a moot point as much time and money could be saved by merely filing. I suppose it could be a zen thing. If that's the case, I hadn't picked up on it from the loads of top wood workers promoting the practice on youtube.


I think the "finer edge lasts longer" theory could hold true for scrapers because fine lines running parallel to the edge could morph into break points as they get pushed over the edge to create the burr. I don't know if I read that somewhere, but to my inexperienced brain it could make sense.


One idea I have that could explain why the burr was so difficult to establish on the scrapers I have is that as I was creating those ridiculous grooves in the stone, I was rounding over the edges. So any burr made would have to wait until the rounded edge was made flat by the burnisher. That could explain why it was taking too long to remove the very minor machining marks, yet I was creating so much swarf.


I did get the 400 grit Japanese diamond plate today, so maybe I'll try that.

[Robin Dobbie]

Tried just the file, a rusty old USA-made Nicholson that belonged to my gramps, and it works. Well. Very easy to make a burr afterwards, too. No stone or plate, just file and burnish.

So, nothing wrong with the Crown scrapers I got. Just the user!

[Pete Taran]

Robin,

I used scrapers daily for about two years when I was making dovetail saws. I refined my approach after many, many, many long hours of scraping. I did what yielded the best results in the least amount of time. Stoning is a waste of time. It might make the edge last 5% longer, but if it takes 20 minutes to prep an edge via stone, and two minutes to file and turn a burr, you can see where that minuscule edge savings is not worth the time to get it. I was going to mention, I never saw a piece of spring steel that was too hard. That does have a big impact on how long a scraper stays sharp. I used the same steel I made saw blades out of which was 50-52 C.

Sounds like you are on the right track.

Pete

[Kevin Jenness]

Someone is wrong on the internet! Could be me.

If you want an effective, slightly rough cutting edge on a card scraper in short order just file the edge. Use it until it is dull. File again. Just as many turners use an edge straight from the grinder, filing will produce a usable, though rough and relatively short-lasting burr with no fooling around. Try it- it might work well enough for you. If not, there is no shortage of free advice here, worth every penny.

[Mel Fulks]

I agree with Kevin. The scraper is usually just my coarse sandpaper. I don't turn the edge ,but I do burnish them. The ones made from the $2.00 hand saws are no
better than the ones made from the $1.00 hand saws. Any slackers are quickly replaced.

[Patrick Chase]

It might make the edge last 5% longer, but if it takes 20 minutes to prep an edge via stone, and two minutes to file and turn a burr, you can see where that minuscule edge savings is not worth the time to get it.

In fairness people who stone usually file first, and just use the stone to quickly clean up the file marks. If you do it that way it's maybe 4 minutes vs 2.

Also the payoff is more in tracking (or lack thereof) than in edge life. I do it both ways depending on how the scraper will be used, and when I don't stone I end up with more variations in edge shape/sharpness (as felt by running my fingernail light along it) and more fine striations in the work. If you're shaping a highly sculpted object like a saw handle then that probably wouldn't matter, but it does come into play if you're trying to produce a finish-ready (no sanding required) tabletop surface that can withstand close observation under grazing light.

[Andrew Seemann]

Hi Robin,

I think I use a fine or extra fine DMT credit card on them after filing and before running the back of the gouge across them, but only on the rare occasion I am scraping a finish. Other than that, it is just a file and the back of the gouge to burnish.

I have an old Sanvik and a slightly less old Bahco I use for most scrapping. I also have a set from Woodcraft with curves in it that I use occasionally. It also came with a smaller rectangular one, which I use for scraping glue off boards and the formica top of my assembly bench. That one is kind of my "beater" scraper.

[Pete Taran]

It occurred to me that when people talk about "filing an edge" and then turn the burr, some specification is likely helpful. If you are using a 14" mill bastard file to work your scrapers edge, I agree 100%, that could lead to some roughness in the burr. If, however, you are using the proper 6" mill smooth file for such work, the edge nearly as smooth as it can be. An extra data point that might be useful.

[Robin Dobbie]

Those who stone and see a positive difference, what kind of finish are you using?

Several times in various places, and most recently when I was watching Paul Sellers' 250-grit video, I saw it posited that in order for wood to accept a finish, it needs some roughness. Is that even true? If so, for all finishes? Are people who go to seemingly ridiculous grits like 10,000 - 50,000 just rubbing oil on?

Now I wouldn't call what I got last night with just the file and burnish "rough." Some are calling card scrapers their rough sandpaper. In my world as a filthy, lazy, dis-respectable powertool user, it's quite fine. Maybe I need to adjust my senses. I guess I need to plane a board, cut it in thirds, then do a side-by-side comparison.

file - burnish
file - 1000 stone - burnish
file - 1000 stone - 5000 stone - burnish

I have pine, cherry, hickory, red oak, and white oak. Would cherry be the best wood for this experiment?

[Robin Dobbie]

It occurred to me that when people talk about "filing an edge" and then turn the burr, some specification is likely helpful. If you are using a 14" mill bastard file to work your scrapers edge, I agree 100%, that could lead to some roughness in the burr. If, however, you are using the proper 6" mill smooth file for such work, the edge nearly as smooth as it can be. An extra data point that might be useful.

These are my "smooth" files. Are they too rough? Looks like Nicholson I used on the bottom has 40-42 ridges per inch.



big:http://tinyimg.io/i/oP4tTjO.jpg

[Andrew Seemann]

If you do want to do the experiment, I'd say use pine, cherry and one of the oaks. They all react differently to the scraper. Pine would be the most different. Softwoods tend to be more springy in the earlywood, so sometimes it wants to rise a little proud of the harder late wood after scraping. It's kind of the opposite effect you get from sanding where the softer wood is abraded away leaving the harder late wood proud. In general softwoods are not ideal for scraping, as they leave a fuzzier surface than is desired, although sometimes you have a situation where scraping is just the trick.

Others may argue differently, but I think cherry and oak react a little different to the scraper, and probably worth seeing the difference.