First time with card scrapers and water stones, not what I expected at any point

[Robin Dobbie]

I'd never used a Japanese water stone before today. Also, I'd never used or prepared a card scraper.

I had heard water stones were softer than India or Arkansas stones, but I also heard the Shapton stones were an improvement, especially the ceramic. So I got ceramic.

Flattening the edges on brand new card scrapers took what I thought was a really long time(20 minutes solid of vigorous sliding for two scrapers, two 6" x .030" edges per scraper) to get all evidence of machining off of the edges. Also, I left a lot of grooves in the stone. Could I have avoided this had I rounded the corners of the scrapers? Is there any reason not to?

Despite the perceived long time, I knew I was removing metal from the scrapers because the water was getting thick gray and I had to keep spraying the top of the stone to keep gray sludge from clogging up the works. I think at least some of the sludge could have been from the block of wood I was using to keep the scraper edge at 90. I guess maybe I need a 90 degree honing guide with wheels! lol

Attachment 381794

I was using the 1000 grit "ha no"... whatever it's called. K0702.

When I watched William NG and Matthew Cremona sharpen card scrapers, I got the impression that things would be a lot faster. Matthew spent a total of like 20 seconds on one edge after filing before going right to a 4000 grit stone, before finally moving on to an 8000. I was using a stone with a quarter the grit rating, and was going for 15 times longer. And to be honest, the cards looked flat when I started, they just had very, very light milling marks. I suppose I could have filed them, but William Ng says no do.

William says he doesn't file his scrapers because it's just like taking a file to your wood. regardless, William didn't take very long, either. He started off on a 1000 stone just like I did. Might even be the same stone I have. Same color and general shape. Anyway, he spent just a few seconds at 1000, then moved onto what he called a 4000 grit "polishing stone."

When it came to burnishing, I had to use a lot of pressure to get anywhere. Both Matthew and William emphasized that lots of downward pressure was not necessary. I absolutely did not find that to be the case. I did eventually get my burrs with mega pressure. I wasn't using a purpose-made burnisher, I was using the lower part of a Woodcraft cheapie chisel handle. They claim they're hardened to R 59-63, and the card scrapers(Crown) claim they're R 40-42. I don't know if that part of the chisel is that hard, of if it's just the blade area. I did read a review on the scrapers by someone who claimed the scrapers were really hard and burnishing was really difficult compared to their other scrapers, so I'm possibly not alone, there.

So I need softer scrapers, a proper burnisher, and to flatten my water stone. I ordered an Atoma 400 diamond plate to do that. Not a true lapping plate, but I can't afford one at the moment.

[Warren West]

While Shaptons may be hard as water stones go, they are about has hard as a hershey bar compared to an India, Arkansas, Diamond or Ceramic stone. Get one of these for your scraper sharpening.

No, don't round over the scraper edges! The whole reason they cut is that they are NOT rounded over and in fact are straight and have a burr turned on them. Read some more sources on sharpening them and avoid anyone that shows you how to do it on a waterstone. I sharpen mine on diamond and burnish them with a cheap carbide sharpener with a rounded face that is suited to the purpose. https://www.knifecenter.com/item/AOB...bide-Sharpener

[john zulu]

First of all.... What card scrapers are you using? Is there a link to the item. Next is the burnisher. I use a bought burnisher.

I spend little time sharpening my card scrapers on the Shapton Pro. 2000 to 8000 then use the burnisher with machine oil. The entire process for both edges is under 10 mins.

[Robin Dobbie]

While Shaptons may be hard as water stones go, they are about has hard as a hershey bar compared to an India, Arkansas, Diamond or Ceramic stone. Get one of these for your scraper sharpening.

Well it supposedly is a ceramic stone. It says "ceramic whetstone" on the top. Whet stone/water stone. I suppose all water stones are whet stones, but not all whet stones are water stones. I think shapton says you can use oil or water, and I think I read somewhere that any new stone can be used with water or oil, unless it's been pre-charged with oil at the factory. Anyway, sidetrack.

No, don't round over the scraper edges!

The whole reason they cut is that they are NOT rounded over and in fact are straight and have a burr turned on them.

I should have worded that differently. I meant corners. I am retarded, but not that retarded. I know one needs at least a sharp intersection to get anything at all done with a scraper.

After scraping about 10 square feet of lacquered surface and having the scrapers dig in to my index fingers, I really see no reason not to round over the square corners just a smidge.

Read some more sources on sharpening them and avoid anyone that shows you how to do it on a waterstone. I sharpen mine on diamond and burnish them with a cheap carbide sharpener with a rounded face that is suited to the purpose. https://www.knifecenter.com/item/AOB...bide-Sharpener

That's a lot of people to avoid. Are they all in some kind of water stone mafia? Haha! I just feel like either I was doing something wrong or my expectations are whack, or maybe the stone is a knock off? Does that happen? But even Mark the wood whisperer's video about scraper sharpening shows him using my exact stone(assuming mine's real). He does use a file as well, so I think that's what I should have done. What William Ng says about using a file on a scraper being just like using a file on your wood doesn't make a lot of sense to me considering that after the file we're honing to 1000+.

I guess I'll put a 1000 grit diamond plate on the shopping list. I actually bought a 600/1200 8x3 eze lap, but it's warped. I didn't think twice about ordering it since Paul Sellers loves his eze laps. But he was smart and didn't get the plastic sandwich one. If I like the Atoma 400 I might get the Atoma 1200. The DMT 8 inch isn't much less and the Atoma is 10x4.3?!

First of all.... What card scrapers are you using?

https://www.amazon.com/Crown-20180-Rectangle-Cabinet-Scraper/dp/B001V9KODW

The entire process for both edges is under 10 mins.

I spent about 20 on 4 edges, so how much under 10 are we talking, here? Maybe I'm not too far off "normal."

Marc Spagnolo admits to taking 2-3 minutes to hone just the sides even using the ruler trick. I wasn't using the ruler trick and the factory burr was gone in no time. Just a few strokes and it was smooth.

Mark advises moving the scraper around a lot to avoid grooving the stone, which I certainly tried to do. He doesn't seem to be using a lot of pressure, so maybe I was too hard on it. Because uh, I went to groove town. Groove metropolis, really.

if the work takes too long with your chosen tool, switch to a coarser tool and work your way up with finer tools again. This rule is valid for all kinds of materials and especially for steel.

In your case, start with a file.

Yeah I think I'll start filing. Just makes sense.

[ernest dubois]

Robbin, I don't think you're retarded at all, just understandably confused by all the noise out there. Look, I learned using the card scraper following the four lines of notes I took from my teacher - it was a really small notebook too- and the advise that it takes a lot of practice before you will figure it out. Stop with the acquisition of this gimmick promoted by that guru as the absolute answer, it's a vicious game. Not all card scrapers are alike and it will take some experimentation before you find one that suits you but luckily they are not expensive and many different ones can be found. I have a new sandvik with a neato plastic slip around it and real shiny faces, it sits in my drawer most of the time except when I grab it to clean a smudge off the top of my workbench. Ones made from old saw blades and a super cheapo got from the local hardware shop are my favorites. Try out different thickness also, round your ends if you want but I think this might just encourage the wrong technique and using more force than is called for and especially, use no force to set your burr! Not to be discouraging by any means, but I'm afraid, based on what I have seen that gets widely dished out as advise and schooling, that it is an up-hill battle for you unless you are able to tune into the essentials of the matter.

[Kevin Jenness]

There are as many opinions on sharpening as there are people who are shocked that someone is wrong on the internet.

This may seem scandalous, but I often use a card scraper with a filed edge. The burr is weak, but you can eliminate a lot of tearout before you need to file again, and the scraped surface can be refined starting with 150# sandpaper. Filing takes less than a minute including walking over to the metal vise on my sharpening bench.

If I want a finer, longer-lasting burr I file first to get below the used-up burr then knock down the new burr by rubbing the scraper faces on a medium waterstone, then stand the scraper on edge and remove the file marks on the same stone. I use a small square-edged wood block as a jig to keep the scraper vertical, and I hold the scraper at an angle to its direction of travel to avoid grooving the stone.

I use a purchased (<$10) round burnisher, but I got by for many years using a chisel or the shank of a drill bit (the burnisher has a comfortable wooden handle and it is always at the sharpening bench). I use light pressure, drawing out the burr with the burnisher close to flat on the scraper face for a few strokes on each side, then turn the burr with a few strokes at about 5 degrees off vertical to the face. The resulting burr is fine enough to scrape a finished surface and can be renewed several times before refiling. All this takes less than five minutes.

Keep working at it and you will find a technique that is good enough for your purposes.

[John C Cox]

Since this is your first go at card scrapers - I recommend clamping a good fine cut file in a vise and sharpening them on that. 2 clean passes in each direction on each side. Turn the burr and off you go... Leave the file clamped in your vise while you work... Refresh the edge as soon as it starts getting dull...

Once you get the hang of making a burr, turning the burr, and using scrapers - then start testing out various stones..

If you want to start somewhere on a stone - get a Carborundum/Crystolon stone in about 220 or 400 grit and start there... But I recommend starting off on the file and then move to stones as you gain proficiency....

[Andrew Seemann]

Hi Robin,

Scrapers are highly personal tools, and for whatever reason, people tend to be emotionally invested in their way of using and sharpening them. As a result, you often get people very passionately presenting their way, which can be completely contradictory to the next person's way. It also may or may not be appropriate to how you are going to use the card scraper. There recently was a good thread here that covered sharpening quite thoroughly that is worth a look.

The main thing on a card scraper is to get a sharp 90 angle on each edge prior to turing the burr. There are many, many ways to do that: files, stones, wheels, etc. Personally, I don't use stones on scrapers, only a file. I don't use them for scraping finish, so for me, edge quality isn't that important. If I do need a finer edge, I usually use a diamond "credit card" on them.

When you are starting out, as John mentioned above, a file is probably the easiest way to be successful. When I did try to use stones on scrapers, I found that it can be hard to not round the edge. The other thing is that you really don't need much of a burr to use the scraper. I run the back of a carving gouge across the edge once at about 10 degrees and that is it. The whole process takes less than 5 minutes, including getting the tools out and putting them back.

Additionally, until you use a scraper for a while and try all the different techniques (including "wrong" ones, what is wrong with a scraper to one person is just the thing for someone else), you won't really have a good idea of what you are looking for in a scraper and its use. If you have the option of having someone sharpen and turn the burn for you, definitely do that. It helps to get an idea what the tool is supposed to do if you have it set up right. With a scraper, there really is no substitute for practice and trying different techniques.

Also, after I figured out how to use the scraper, I found out that I had some unrealistic expectations about it based on magazine articles (this was before the internet), like how long an edge would last, and that you still can get tear out. I also went into it thinking that sharpening was harder than it actually was, and that it would be more difficult to use. Once I got the hang of it though, it quickly became one of my favorite tools, and I am not shy about using power sanders.

[Robin Dobbie]

...round your ends if you want but I think this might just encourage the wrong technique and using more force than is called for and especially, use no force to set your burr! Not to be discouraging by any means, but I'm afraid, based on what I have seen that gets widely dished out as advise and schooling, that it is an up-hill battle for you unless you are able to tune into the essentials of the matter.

It seems to me that the force required... is what it is, for lack of a better phrase. It takes a certain force at least to bend the scraper, and to get it to bite, and have long, continuous strokes without skipping. I tried using less force on the wood, but when I do it seems I'm more likely to chatter across the surface. Seems raw wood is easier, but I was scraping some kind of film finish off of some kind of Asian hardwood.

This may seem scandalous, but I often use a card scraper with a filed edge.

That doesn't seem scandalous at all. I think the surface I'm getting is far smoother than it even needs to be, and I just used a 1000 stone. It's amazing to look at and it's a great first-impression of what a card scraper is capable of, but I was thinking how useless its smoothness is. I'm struggling to grasp why anyone does the 4000 or 8000 stone. Don't you need a rougher surface for a finish or even glue?

Hi Robin,


Personally, I don't use stones on scrapers, only a file. I don't use them for scraping finish, so for me, edge quality isn't that important.

Yeah I think I'll still rough up the surface with 220 before I apply another finish. I don't really see a way around that because the surface just seems too smooth and hard, still. I am scraping, not burnishing, I am getting wispy shavings of what I think is all wood.

If I do need a finer edge, I usually use a diamond "credit card" on them.

What grit diamond sharpener?

Also, after I figured out how to use the scraper, I found out that I had some unrealistic expectations about it based on magazine articles (this was before the internet), like how long an edge would last, and that you still can get tear out.

I was glad I had done both long edges on both scrapers because it took all of them to get 10ft of finish removed. I'm thinking I'll order more scrapers just to have more ready. And yeah, I was getting random tear out. Smooth wood before and after, but random hairy areas. Still had to bust out the sand paper. And I'll of course sand the whole thing at 220, and 220 - 400 between coats of finish.

[John C Cox]

Robin,

if you leave the file clamped in the vise or the stone on the bench... Refreshing the edge burrs takes less than 2 minutes if you use a burnisher... Flip the edge to the next pne the second it starts to dull... Then resharpen as soon as you get through the 4 edges.. You will find the whole scraping job will go much faster because your tool is always good and sharp and cuts very fast - you don't try to scrape another foot or 2 on a half-dull scraper....

[Pete Taran]

Agree with the posters who say file and burnish. Takes 2 minutes. Working for 20 minutes on waterstones is a ridiculous waste of time. Think about what you are doing. Would be like putting a crazy sharp edge on a plane iron and then rubbing a screwdriver on it. All that time sharpening is wasted. File and turn. If you are feeling extravagant, rub the three sides (two faces and edge) on a fine india stone and then turn. You will never see the difference and value for all that waterstone work. Try it and see.

[Robin Dobbie]

I use shapton Pro to sharpen my card scrapers. Crown card scrapers should be the right hardness. I generally mark the entire edge with a marker. Then butt the scraper to something square and sharpen it on the stone. Once the marker is gone from the edge I move to the next stone. I end at 8000 then I will use a burnisher to roll the edge.


If this is the first time, the edge is serrated from machining I would use a file with fine teeth to remove the rough serrations then move to the stones.

Have you ever experienced grooving with your stones when flattening a scraper?


Do you experience a difference between just burnishing at 1000 vs going on to 8000?

OP: There is a report the card scrapers are too hard:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-r...SIN=B001V9KODW


Try Lee Valley scrapers. I use them often and they work fine.

Yeah that's the review I saw that made me wonder if it was me or the scrapers. The scrapers didn't leave gouges in the chisels, but there was a visible mark. Couldn't feel anything, however.

Was this the first time you worked the scraper in question?


If so then you were taking out the manufacturer's machining marks and geometry errors, that that sometimes takes a *lot* of material removal.


When I commission a new scraper I usually start with the biggest nastiest bastard file in my collection (or maybe a belt grinder) and work down from there. A 1K waterstone isn't the right tool for the job.

First time with any scrapers. I think you're right. I should have filed them, first.

Bahcos are also extremely good: https://www.amazon.com/Bahco-6-Inch-...YR9N77C9Z12QT6


It's unfortunate that Crown are selling over-hard scrapers, when you consider that their burnisher is soft as putty.

I see those reccomended a lot I'll try em.

Hi,
Before re-engineering your procedure, I think you should consider buying a Bahco 474 card scraper and having another go. It will cost you less than $10 and you can use the link Patrick provided if you're an Amazon fan, or if you like Highland Woodworking, they sell it too: https://www.highlandwoodworking.com/...rdscraper.aspx


This is the tried and true card scraper that used to go under the name Sandvik before Bahco purchased them. The entire prep should take you less than 5-10 minutes. I think the video of William Ng demonstrating preparation and use is very good. Sounds like you've already seen it.


I think it's worth getting a burnisher. I have the Hock burnisher.


Edwin

I see the Hock's recommended in a few videos I saw. I think I could even save a couple bucks and make my own handle. I don't know, the chisels are harder than the cards, so I may stick with that method for a while.

Agree with the posters who say file and burnish. Takes 2 minutes. Working for 20 minutes on waterstones is a ridiculous waste of time. Think about what you are doing. Would be like putting a crazy sharp edge on a plane iron and then rubbing a screwdriver on it. All that time sharpening is wasted. File and turn. If you are feeling extravagant, rub the three sides (two faces and edge) on a fine india stone and then turn. You will never see the difference and value for all that waterstone work. Try it and see.

I'm finding it hard to imagine that you're wrong, but so many people go to 4000, 8000. One of the few reasons I can fathom people might go through the effort is the idea that a finer edge lasts longer. I've heard people adamantly claim just the opposite. I really don't know either way. Is it difficult to objectivly measure both theories? Surely someone has at least tried. I suppose it may be a moot point as much time and money could be saved by merely filing. I suppose it could be a zen thing. If that's the case, I hadn't picked up on it from the loads of top wood workers promoting the practice on youtube.


I think the "finer edge lasts longer" theory could hold true for scrapers because fine lines running parallel to the edge could morph into break points as they get pushed over the edge to create the burr. I don't know if I read that somewhere, but to my inexperienced brain it could make sense.


One idea I have that could explain why the burr was so difficult to establish on the scrapers I have is that as I was creating those ridiculous grooves in the stone, I was rounding over the edges. So any burr made would have to wait until the rounded edge was made flat by the burnisher. That could explain why it was taking too long to remove the very minor machining marks, yet I was creating so much swarf.


I did get the 400 grit Japanese diamond plate today, so maybe I'll try that.

[Warren West]

Well it supposedly is a ceramic stone. It says "ceramic whetstone" on the top. Whet stone/water stone. I suppose all water stones are whet stones, but not all whet stones are water stones. I think shapton says you can use oil or water, and I think I read somewhere that any new stone can be used with water or oil, unless it's been pre-charged with oil at the factory. Anyway, sidetrack.

I should have worded that differently. I meant corners. I am retarded, but not that retarded. I know one needs at least a sharp intersection to get anything at all done with a scraper.

I see what you mean re: ceramic. When I refer to ceramic stones, I'm talking about things like Spyderco ceramics that are very hard and don't slurry with anything less than silicon carbide grit or diamond grit or plates. With the Shaptons the grit might be ceramic, but it's not fused together the same way and that's why they are soft stone of very hard particles in the same way that a Norton Crystolon stone ends up being a soft stone of very hard particles.

And I misunderstood what you meant about rounding over. You certainly could round those over if you wish.

One thing whatever stone you use, when I was taught to sharpen a scraper we used a soft Arkansas and my teacher had us go back and forth with the scraper like a knife but at the same time moving the scraper accross the stone slightly. Otherwise it's possible to wear a groove in a soft Arkansas. This is probably applicable to any stone that is not a diamond plate or a Spyderco ceramic.

[john zulu]

Well it supposedly is a ceramic stone. It says "ceramic whetstone" on the top. Whet stone/water stone. I suppose all water stones are whet stones, but not all whet stones are water stones. I think shapton says you can use oil or water, and I think I read somewhere that any new stone can be used with water or oil, unless it's been pre-charged with oil at the factory. Anyway, sidetrack.





I should have worded that differently. I meant corners. I am retarded, but not that retarded. I know one needs at least a sharp intersection to get anything at all done with a scraper.

After scraping about 10 square feet of lacquered surface and having the scrapers dig in to my index fingers, I really see no reason not to round over the square corners just a smidge.



That's a lot of people to avoid. Are they all in some kind of water stone mafia? Haha! I just feel like either I was doing something wrong or my expectations are whack, or maybe the stone is a knock off? Does that happen? But even Mark the wood whisperer's video about scraper sharpening shows him using my exact stone(assuming mine's real). He does use a file as well, so I think that's what I should have done. What William Ng says about using a file on a scraper being just like using a file on your wood doesn't make a lot of sense to me considering that after the file we're honing to 1000+.

I guess I'll put a 1000 grit diamond plate on the shopping list. I actually bought a 600/1200 8x3 eze lap, but it's warped. I didn't think twice about ordering it since Paul Sellers loves his eze laps. But he was smart and didn't get the plastic sandwich one. If I like the Atoma 400 I might get the Atoma 1200. The DMT 8 inch isn't much less and the Atoma is 10x4.3?!



https://www.amazon.com/Crown-20180-Rectangle-Cabinet-Scraper/dp/B001V9KODW



I spent about 20 on 4 edges, so how much under 10 are we talking, here? Maybe I'm not too far off "normal."

Marc Spagnolo admits to taking 2-3 minutes to hone just the sides even using the ruler trick. I wasn't using the ruler trick and the factory burr was gone in no time. Just a few strokes and it was smooth.

Mark advises moving the scraper around a lot to avoid grooving the stone, which I certainly tried to do. He doesn't seem to be using a lot of pressure, so maybe I was too hard on it. Because uh, I went to groove town. Groove metropolis, really.



Yeah I think I'll start filing. Just makes sense.

I use shapton Pro to sharpen my card scrapers. Crown card scrapers should be the right hardness. I generally mark the entire edge with a marker. Then butt the scraper to something square and sharpen it on the stone. Once the marker is gone from the edge I move to the next stone. I end at 8000 then I will use a burnisher to roll the edge.

If this is the first time, the edge is serrated from machining I would use a file with fine teeth to remove the rough serrations then move to the stones.

[Kees Heiden]

One thing I can comment: if the work takes too long with your chosen tool, switch to a coarser tool and work your way up with finer tools again. This rule is valid for all kinds of materials and especially for steel.

In your case, start with a file.