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Thread: chisel steel

  1. #16
    Many people like their vintage EA Bergs and these are highly reputed, I know I have one and think it is superior. But this brings up the element almost entirely left out, namely, anyone who knows steel the way the smid knows steel will tell you, get that good steel, the one suitable to your needs and wants but that is only half the story because without the right treatment the steel itself doesn't matter. Maybe the ones who know will tell us all about the ht of the finished products they like and recommend so much. Would be interesting to see.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon SPEAKS View Post
    Hi guys,

    I have a set of wood river chisels which work well enough. I would like to potentially buy one or two premium chisels though and then slowly build a set, the idea would be that these are lifetime heirloom quality tools I wont replace. Because of this I am not particularly price sensitive.

    My question comes down to steel. In the knife world, which I am more experienced in than the tool world, I tended to like 1095. It does rust and does dull more quickly but I can easily get a really good edge on it compared to some of the modern steels that "take a bad edge and hold it forever." What I am wondering is how does this overall philosophy translate into chisels. I like the concept of Lie Nielsen socket chisels which can easily have a new handle made, but feel like their A2 steel may not be the best fit. LV 01 chisels sound more like my type of steel but I am less enthusiastic about the tang rather than socket. Blue spruce are beautiful tools but have both problems. LV PM V11 seems like another contender, but has the same issue of a tang as their 01, although if it really is as easy to sharpen as 01 and has edge holding properties of A2 maybe the trade off is worth it.

    I guess the question comes down to the steel it's self mostly, what are the advantages and trade offs of 01, A2, and PM V11. Its not out of the question to buy one of each and test how they work for me, but thought it was worth looking for an informed opinion first.
    Brandon

    Since others have mentioned Japanese chisels first, I will chime in.

    The best steel for woodworking chisels has always been high-purity, plain high-carbon steel. Since ancient times. The modern alloys have some advantages, but nearly all of those advantages benefit the manufacturers more than the end-user as the alloys facilitate low-skill fabrication techniques and heat-treating with fewer rejects. Most modern chisels are not made by blacksmiths, but by unskilled, minimally-trained factory workers following a formula. Consequently, per-unit costs are very low. The resulting quality is barely useable, IMO. I think Wind River chisels fall into this category perfectly.

    While material costs may be lower than high-alloy modern steel, plain high-carbon steel is difficult to work with, and quite impossible for untrained factory workers to use to produce a quality chisel in a cost-effective manner. It is temperamental to forge. It has a narrow range of temperatures that work for quenching and tempering. If the blacksmith misses that range, the steel will not harden properly, or will be irreparably ruined. It also always warps when heat treated, so the blacksmith must anticipate this warpage and shape the blade accordingly. This means a curved blade goes into the water, and a straight blade (should) come out. This takes experience to get right.

    Plain HC steel also tends to crack when heat treated. Experience and care minimize this, but some rejects always result. The cost of doing business.

    The ability to deal with these difficulties is part of the "mystery of steel" that for millenia gave blacksmiths the reputation of having magical powers as they manipulated in the secret the 5 elements of earth, wind, fire, water, and natural magic.

    Modern chemistry (metallurgy) has made it possible for unskilled labor, even Chinese peasants, to mass-produce useable blades at low cost. Manufacturer's profits are thereby increased, but quality/performance is decreased compared to traditional methods/materials. So the question is, are you satisfied with "useable" quality blades, or do you want the quality only a master blacksmith working HC steel can provide?

    If you want chisels made from the best steel, to high quality standards, you have two choices. The first option is to find hand-forged antique chisels of the kind Warren uses. The Brits, the Swedes, and the Americans, among others, made some excellent chisels in past centuries. I own them and have used them, and value their quality and performance highly, although they tend to be a little softer by design than I prefer.

    The second option, and the only choice if you want new product, is to buy hand-forged Japanese chisels made from high-purity plain high-carbon steel. The Japanese chisels tend to be harder, and hold an edge longer than their Western counterparts. If a Western chisel with its simple design is made to the same hardness, there is a real risk of breaking the blade. Sad to say I've done this before. The Japanese solution is to forge-weld a layer of high-carbon steel, which forms the hard cutting edge, to a softer low-carbon steel body/neck. The softer steel handles the bending and shear forces that would otherwise snap the blade in half. The result is a tough chisel that can be driven with a steel hammer all day long without breaking, is easy to sharpen to a fiercely sharp edge, and will retain that edge longer. It is a very clever and very effective design driven by the Japanese fetish with sharp cutting tools. Many non-Japanese craftsmen value these chisels highly.

    Despite appearances, Japanese chisels are not socket chisels, but tang & ferrule construction. The ferrule is cone shaped providing the handle more strength than a simple tubular ferrule, but it is a ferrule nonetheless.

    I hope this helped.

    Stan
    Last edited by Stanley Covington; 03-18-2018 at 11:50 PM.

  3. #18
    I've been rust hunting vintage chisels for decades. I've had quite a number pass through my hands, and a few dozen that have stayed around. I can heartily recommend old steel. I do like socket chisels just fine but I don't consider them to be superior, necessarily. I guess for chopping the more robust construction of a socket makes some sense, but that only goes so far as both have wood handles.

    Most of the tang chisels I have have been sharpened pretty short. Not surprising as they are considerably older, but it means i don't have like comparisons for very many uses. I do like the feel in hand of a hand forged tang chisel.

    I guess the point is good chisels don't have to be new, or expensive if you're willing to make a practice of hunting for them.

  4. #19
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    Stan, I mentioned Japanese chisels earlier, as well as Veritas PM-V11. Another point I touched on was that Western and Japanese chisels tend to be used differently. Finally, commentary has included vintage Western laminated blades and their worth. There is a thread that weaves its way through this, and in your post, that I would like to toss up for further discussion.

    I am also aware that Brandon, the OP, is a knife maker and understands steels, and so would enjoy his participation here as well.

    There are two issues: the first is how the decision to purchase Japanese and Western chisels is influenced by the way they are used. Western bench chisels tend to be all rounders, that is, one can hit them with a mallet or push them by hand into the cut. By contrast, when I pick up a Japanese bench chisel, I also always pick up a gennou. It is rare that I will push a bench chisel. If this is needed, a slick is instead used. (Yes I know that a hooped chisel can be pushed, but the Japanese chisels are designed to be struck, and best used this way).

    The blade length of the average oire nomi is short compared with the Western bench chisel. The two chisels tend to have a different feel, a different balance. Recommending Japanese chisels because of their wonderful blades ignores that the newbie may find the change unsettling. I switch between the two styles all the time, and do not think much about it, but am reminded of this by this thread.

    Perhaps Warren might comment on the vintage laminated Western chisels he uses, and whether he has compared the styles with laminated Japanese in regard to their ergonomics.

    The second issue is that of vintage vs modern steel. I agree with you that good laminated Japanese blades are sublime. I am reminded of this when using my Kiyohisa slicks. The Koyamaichi mentori I have used for the past dozen years are better than the best modern Western chisel I have used. There is no doubting that these blades have been the result of many years - centuries - of experience with steel and its preparation. What of the Western counterparts available today? The point you made above is that shortcuts are taken to create a working blade, and that the product is mediocre (compared to what Japan can offer). That is not the part I wish to draw attention to (as I agree). Over the past 10 years I have been exposed to a number of different modern steels: A2, M2, M4, 3V, D2 and a few others. The first one that I have been excited about is PM-V11. This is the first use of powdered metallurgy that balances edge durability and steel workability (i.e. ability to sharpen easily). In this, there is a similarity to laminated blades to achieve the same goals.

    This is not about PM-V11, however. My thoughts lie with how manufacturers in the future will be able to design steel composition in a way that the past blade masters could only have dreamed of doing. The question is not whether this will become a reality, but when it will be commonly available for woodworking tools. PM-V11 is just the beginning. I know of at least one other manufacturer using PM steel in chisels.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Cohen View Post
    Stan, I mentioned Japanese chisels earlier, as well as Veritas PM-V11. Another point I touched on was that Western and Japanese chisels tend to be used differently. Finally, commentary has included vintage Western laminated blades and their worth. There is a thread that weaves its way through this, and in your post, that I would like to toss up for further discussion.

    I am also aware that Brandon, the OP, is a knife maker and understands steels, and so would enjoy his participation here as well.

    There are two issues: the first is how the decision to purchase Japanese and Western chisels is influenced by the way they are used. Western bench chisels tend to be all rounders, that is, one can hit them with a mallet or push them by hand into the cut. By contrast, when I pick up a Japanese bench chisel, I also always pick up a gennou. It is rare that I will push a bench chisel. If this is needed, a slick is instead used. (Yes I know that a hooped chisel can be pushed, but the Japanese chisels are designed to be struck, and best used this way).

    The blade length of the average oire nomi is short compared with the Western bench chisel. The two chisels tend to have a different feel, a different balance. Recommending Japanese chisels because of their wonderful blades ignores that the newbie may find the change unsettling. I switch between the two styles all the time, and do not think much about it, but am reminded of this by this thread.

    Perhaps Warren might comment on the vintage laminated Western chisels he uses, and whether he has compared the styles with laminated Japanese in regard to their ergonomics.

    The second issue is that of vintage vs modern steel. I agree with you that good laminated Japanese blades are sublime. I am reminded of this when using my Kiyohisa slicks. The Koyamaichi mentori I have used for the past dozen years are better than the best modern Western chisel I have used. There is no doubting that these blades have been the result of many years - centuries - of experience with steel and its preparation. What of the Western counterparts available today? The point you made above is that shortcuts are taken to create a working blade, and that the product is mediocre (compared to what Japan can offer). That is not the part I wish to draw attention to (as I agree). Over the past 10 years I have been exposed to a number of different modern steels: A2, M2, M4, 3V, D2 and a few others. The first one that I have been excited about is PM-V11. This is the first use of powdered metallurgy that balances edge durability and steel workability (i.e. ability to sharpen easily). In this, there is a similarity to laminated blades to achieve the same goals.

    This is not about PM-V11, however. My thoughts lie with how manufacturers in the future will be able to design steel composition in a way that the past blade masters could only have dreamed of doing. The question is not whether this will become a reality, but when it will be commonly available for woodworking tools. PM-V11 is just the beginning. I know of at least one other manufacturer using PM steel in chisels.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Derek:

    Interesting points.

    Re ergonomics and manner of use, that is a matter of personal preference, and while it can be argued back and forth till the cows come home, it is a decision each person must make themselves.

    Re vintage versus modern steel, I hope that metallurgy advances to the point where Chinese peasants are able to make chisels with performance that exceeds the best of the currently available Japanese blades. The number of Japanese craftsman able/willing to hand-forge high-quality chisels is dwindling every day, and I don't see anything of comparable quality and performance ready to replace this product anywhere else. I hope that changes.

    I think that LV and LN and others are making an effort to provide high-quality chisels because there is a demand for quality and performance, and they found a way to make money doing it. Their founders struggled and worked hard, and not likely to forget what has brought them success. But I strongly suspect this was driven in large part as a reaction to Japanese chisels as recommended by James Krenov. 50 or so years ago Western manufacturers slowly but surely entirely abandoned quality and performance in exchange for superficial appearance and increased profits. LV and LN learned that many would pay more for a better tool than a Stanley FatMax concrete beater. What was a niche market has expanded, and now we even see Stanley resurrecting their old designs, albeit it appears they have not been able to overcome the engrained habit of selling appearance while sacrificing performance.

    Vintage chisels are nice, but they are now firmly in the collector market, and as such can only decrease in availability and increase in price. No viable future source of working chisels there.

    I don't hold much hope that there is a bright future for mass-produced high-quality chisels. The McDonalds fast-food style of business management is very firmly rooted in the minds of corporations. Namely, develop a good product that makes a decent profit, promote it like crazy, develop a fan-base, make money. Then management changes, and someone in management sees that they can increase profits, and quarterly bonuses, by using cheaper materials and taking shortcuts in production. Profits increase a little. Quality decreases a little. This is repeated until the once-popular product is despised, and sales drop off. The marketing department suggests a bigger advertising budget, or a new and improved sauce. Quality does not improve. This cycle repeats itself until stock value drops and the organization is "restructured." Some companies find their way back. Many don't. But in the meantime, and this is a critical point, the consumer's expectations were adjusted down. I can remember when the Big Mac was a really good hamburger. The ones available in the US are terrible. The Big Mac sold in Japan is much better, if still far from the original. I hope this analogy makes sense.

    LV and LN still have their first generation leadership. How will the second generation behave? Will new men with firm standards for quality and customer satisfactions and new ideas come forward? I hope so. It never happened with Stanley. They have a saying in Japan: "Until the third generation," meaning that few businesses survive 3 generations of leadership even if they started with a good product.

    Two cents.
    Last edited by Stanley Covington; 03-19-2018 at 3:23 AM.

  6. #21
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    Hi Stan

    I obviously did not make my points clearly enough in the second issue.

    It is not about the leadership of these companies, or whether LV and LN are making high quality chisels - they are, but that is besides the point. They are going down very different paths: LN are using a steel (A2) that is readily available and easier to manufacture - the very points you used earlier in your criticism (these are fine chisels nonetheless - the finer points of O1 are lost to many, and A2 surfices). LV, on the other hand, are using a steel (PM-V11) that is intended to meet the criticism of grain size in modern abrasion-resistant steels. This is possible future replacement for the craftsmen hammering at HCS to align the grain to produce the quality we find in Japanese blades. In other words, there is a manufacturing process that can challenge the work of dedicated olde world craftsmen (yes, this saddens me on one level).

    The questions I ask are whether this is progress? Will it change the future of craftsmen?

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Last edited by Derek Cohen; 03-19-2018 at 4:48 AM.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Cohen View Post
    Hi Stan

    The questions I ask are whether this is progress? Will it change the future of craftsmen?

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    I left that crystal ball around here somewhere, dagnabit..... let me go check my toolchest. Be right back...

    I guess my answer is the same as what I wrote above. Allow me to simplify.

    1. I think that the art of blacksmithing applied to high-quality tools is not likely to improve, but becomes darker with every passing day.

    2. But I hold out hope that metallurgical advancements just might keep things from getting too bad. Technology and engineering has developed at a frightening rate during the last 60 years, and may well continue to progress.

    3. On the other hand, as I asserted in my previous response, modern business methods are very likely to adulterate metallurgical progress by exchanging quality/performance for marketing/appearance, in order to maximize profits. To make things worse, modern craftsman have decreased expectations and are easily deceived, and are unlikely to insist on high quality/performance long-term. For most people, absolute lowest cost is more important than quality/performance. Harbor Freight Tools is a symptom.

    4. We have good examples of excellent tool manufacturing in LV and LN and others, who have and may continue to buck the bad aspects of modern business methods. But that will depend on the integrity of the leadership/ownership of those companies.

    5. Integrity in business seldom lasts more than 3 generations, so I do not have high expectations for long-term progress in chisel quality.

    In summary, I have some hope, but Murphy is always in control, and human nature will almost always betray high expectations.

    Stan
    Last edited by Stanley Covington; 03-19-2018 at 6:37 AM. Reason: thunking

  8. #23
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    Chicken!

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Cohen View Post
    Chicken!

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  10. #25
    The decline into squalor or the oppression and domination of technology, neither an inevitability, the question is will the individual once again assert themselves. A'course we do have that climate thing now which is a real bummer.
    My friend Martin Claudel is doing some very nice work in collaboration with woodworkers.

  11. #26

  12. #27
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    W1 and 01 steels credibility has been under constant attack since the release of PMV-11.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stewie Simpson View Post
    W1 and 01 steels credibility has been under constant attack since the release of PMV-11.
    No, that's quite incorrect, Stewie.

    To the best of my knowledge, in the past 35 years, W1 was only used by LN. It was ousted by O1 and A2 for the same reasons that A2 began to replace O1.

    O1 was never "under attack", but modern manufacturers began to prefer A2, since this was more reliable (and therefore cheaper) to manufacture. Again, as I understand, W1 is even more likely to warp than O1 when heat treating.

    PMV-11 has absolutely nothing to do with any of this. Indeed, it is seen as a replacement for A2.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  14. #29
    What does the future hold?

    I think we only need to look at the Guitar world, custom knife making, and yes - hand made woodworking to see the answer is staring us right in the face..

    40 years ago - there were only a handful of custom one man shops hand making guitars... They existed only in 2 places - giant big cities and hidden country backwaters... Now - there are thousands and thousands of people making and selling very high quality instruments out of one man shops....

    40 years ago - the story was the same for custom knife makers.. There were only a very few.. If you wanted a good knife - you went Case or Buck... Now - same for custom guitars... Thouands of people are making and selling high quality hand made knives...

    In the woodworking universe - 40 years ago you could get a blue Stanley plane, a Record, or a German made woodie if you could find one.. Maybe a Miller's Falls if you could find them outside the North East USA or Titan down under.... And nobody even considered making their own woodies... And look at where we are now... Lots and lots of people making their own high quality furniture... The demand for tools is on the rise - and there is a hobby universe starting to take shape......

    It wouldn't surprise me to find more guys like Quenton Barr, Leonard and Rob Lee, and Tom Lie Nielsen showing up on the scene... And if these guys want to make a name - they gotta be on their game and produce something worth buying... That means they better be a lot better than the Mc Chisels being cranked out of the factories overseas... And perhaps even better than the established name brands which are resting on their laurels...

  15. #30
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    I like it! I like it a lot!

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