chisel steel

[Brandon Speaks]

Hi guys,

I have a set of wood river chisels which work well enough. I would like to potentially buy one or two premium chisels though and then slowly build a set, the idea would be that these are lifetime heirloom quality tools I wont replace. Because of this I am not particularly price sensitive.

My question comes down to steel. In the knife world, which I am more experienced in than the tool world, I tended to like 1095. It does rust and does dull more quickly but I can easily get a really good edge on it compared to some of the modern steels that "take a bad edge and hold it forever." What I am wondering is how does this overall philosophy translate into chisels. I like the concept of Lie Nielsen socket chisels which can easily have a new handle made, but feel like their A2 steel may not be the best fit. LV 01 chisels sound more like my type of steel but I am less enthusiastic about the tang rather than socket. Blue spruce are beautiful tools but have both problems. LV PM V11 seems like another contender, but has the same issue of a tang as their 01, although if it really is as easy to sharpen as 01 and has edge holding properties of A2 maybe the trade off is worth it.

I guess the question comes down to the steel it's self mostly, what are the advantages and trade offs of 01, A2, and PM V11. Its not out of the question to buy one of each and test how they work for me, but thought it was worth looking for an informed opinion first.

[Warren Mickley]

I think you will like tang chisels if you give them a chance. They are the traditional choice for cabinetmaker and joiner work. Many chisels today, however, have very poor tangs which are clumsy to put handles on. A good tang should be square in section and taper uniformly to a point.

I think 1095 would make a fine chisel. Many of the current makers are way off on another tangent. I would avoid the "premium" junk.

[Mike Baker 2]

There is a ton of knowledge here, and people that can speak to the various differences in the steel itself. I'll let them chime in with that.
But I think you are going to find a lot of opinion or work philosophy as well.
From reading threads like these, there tend to be two basic camps; one that says choose steel that will take and hold an edge longer, but might(I stress might) be more difficult to resharpen, and the other which basically says choose simple carbon steels that are easily resharpened, take less time, etc, but take a fine edge.
i am in camp two, partly out of budget constraints, but mostly because when my blades dull I can go to the stone and be back to work with a very sharp edge in less than a minute, generally. It suits the way I prefer to work, but I am new, so have a lot to learn.
This quote "I tended to like 1095. It does rust and does dull more quickly but I can easily get a really good edge on it compared to some of the modern steels that "take a bad edge and hold it forever." , sort of has me thinking that might be where you're at as well.
Now I'll sit back and read what the more learned around here have to say, and try to learn some more.

[Stanley Covington]

I agree with Warren. A tang and ferrule chisel is better in the long run than socket construction for most applications.

Re steel, it depends on what kind of work you plan to do, your requirements for sharpness, and your sharpening skills.

Plain high-carbon steel will get sharper than any other, and stay sharper, up to a point. It will also be easiest and quickest to sharpen, depending on your definition of sharp.

If you are satisfied with a medium-sharp edge to begin with, one that dulls relatively quickly, but will hold that dullish edge for a long time, and you don't mind spending more time on the stones, A2 is OK. You can tell I don't like A2 very much, despite having planes with A2 blades. I have 6 Lie-Nielson socket chisels with A2 blades too. They are good for weeding the garden.

I have no experience with powdered metal for chisels, so will let others address it.

Rust is a concern for knives, but not usually for chisels. I assume you will take care of them. But if rust is a real issue, the HC steel is not for you.

[Brandon Speaks]

Thanks for the replies so far, since I do want a really good edge, and dont mind sharpening (actually rather enjoy it). Also Stanley, my point was that I am not afraid of rust, even for a hunting or camp knife I prefer a HC steel like 1095.

My impression is that 01 is a similar steel to 1095 and should have the similar properties that I like. I do think it is slightly harder, but much closer to 1095 than something like an A2 would be. If I take socket vs tang out of the equation based on other comments I assume the Veritas 01 chisels might be a very good choice.

[Nathan Johnson]

Similar boat.
I have four of the Narex premium, but I'm looking at the Ashley Iles MKII. They may be the best looking chisel I've seen, and O1 to boot. Seem tough to find individually though.

[Derek Cohen]

Brandon, I would look into Japanese chisels. They will give you the best of both worlds: steel that holds its edge, and is yet easy to hone. The only "difference" is that the blades are laminated rather than a simple mono steel. They are tanged, but in the same way that the Veritas are tanged - a combination tang and ferrule. The other point of note is that they are a little different to Western chisels in that the bench chisels, while they may be pushed, are best used with a steel hammer (gennou).

A popular good brand is Koyamaichi. I have a set and they are excellent value for money. About the same price as Veritas and Lie-Nielsen, so in the range of the premium chisels.

Among the Western chisels, the best tanged and O1 I know by reputation, are the Ashley Isles.

EDIT: I feel I should add that you have nil to be wary of the Veritas PM-V11 chisels. As mentioned above, they are tanged/ferruled exactly as the Japanese. The steel hones fairly easily, and feels like O1 in use. However they hold an edge considerably longer. Considerably so.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Philipp Jaindl]

I have a set of the Ashley Iles MK2 with Bubinga Handles. They have held up perfectly fine being struck with a Wooden Mallet, the O1 Steel (61HRC) is excellent they take a great edge and have good edge retention also really easy to get sharp again, the Profile they have is very well suited for Dovetails the sideflats are 1mm at most near the tang.

Overall i can only recommend them, i really like them especially at the price they are.

Recently got 2 Koyamaichi's they are very well made and take a fantastic edge though i havent used them enough to really comment on Edge retention or how well they hold up overtime.

[ken hatch]

Brandon,

I'm with Warren and Stanley, Tanged chisels tend to have better balance than socket chisels and if treated with just a little skill will last your lifetime and more. One other thing don't look for one chisel type to do everything. Get a good set of Japanese chisels for chopping things like the waste between dovetails and another set of either Japanese paring chisels or Western patternmaker chisels for fine work. For chisels simple HCS works best, of course YMMV.

ken

I just want to add: Ashely Iles makes a very good traditional HCS tanged chisel for a midrange price. My only criticism is the, I believe, Bubinga handles which are a little heavy when compared to a Boxwood handle.

[John C Cox]

TLDR: Based on what you are asking for... Here is where I would recommend you start off:
Ashley Iles, Veritas O1, Barr, Woodcraft socket chisels, Narex, or Marples Blue Chip current production. Pick based on your budget and features... Yes - there are still performance differences due to heat treatment... But these all fit your criteria....

I have done far too much investigation into chisels lately....

Here's what I have come up with so far:

Most western chisel alloys run 0.8-1% carbon. Some do run up above that...

The most common alloys of steels used currently are commercial/national variants of W1, W2, and O1.. The brands highlighting some flavor of chrome steel are likely variants of 52100. The Chinese chisels calling out miscellaneous Chrome Vanadium steel are probably some flavor of W2 because most won't quench hard in oil....

It appears that many are using the variants of W2 and O1 because they will readily cooperate with industrial production methods and they are VERY easy to sharpen on any media (including cement and bricks)... If the steel feels good, smooth, and "dry" on the stones - it'a likely a flavor of one of these, and it has a more dull look that may rust easily... Several German manufacturers are still using W1... It makes very good chisels but is more tricky because it really needs a brine quench...

In this camp: Marples current production, Ashley Iles, Barr, Lamp brand, Aldi, Buck Brothers, Veritas O1, Woodcraft Socket Chisels, Ace Hardware Premium chisels. I believe Narex also shakes out here... Most of these alloys have some Mn as well as V - so calling it a Cr-Mn steel isn't strictly wrong...

If the steel feels more gummy on the stones but still takes an edge well on "regular" stones, and are more shiny and a bit more resistant to rust - it's probably some variant of 52100. Stanley Sheffield made chisels including Fat Max, Bailey, and Socket chisels were advertised as EN31 - which is an EU equivalent of 52100... Good stuff - but you can feel the difference on the stones... Word is that Pfeil is some variant of a 1.15% carbon bearing steel otherwise similar to 52100... And based on their look - I would not be surprised to find out Two Cherries falls out in this camp as well..

A few makers use other stuff like like A2 and PM-V11... These can be fantastic, but will probably do best with new modern stones or diamond...

But the steel alone doesn't tell the whole story - the "Quality" of the forging process and heat treatment makes a big difference as well.. And that shows itself in how they work and how they hold up...

[Mike Baker 2]

Not to derail this thread, but the AI chisels are mentioned a lot, yet I can never find them in stock anywhere. Note that I would prefer the buy them individually as time and budget permits.
Where are you getting them?

[Nicholas Lawrence]

I bought a set of the AI from the best things. Tools for working wood has them as well in sets. With shipping and tax I think I spent about 200 for six chisels, which was about 1/2 the LN/LV, or 1/3 the blue spruce. They only come in O1 (not a problem for me).

Over the winter it has been very dry and some of the ferrules loosened. Very easy to fix though.

[Mike Baker 2]

Thank you.

[brian zawatsky]

I think you should seriously consider Japanese chisels. I found myself in your position a few months ago and have since been slowly acquiring some quality Japanese chisels and loving every minute of it. The sharpness of the edge that can be achieved is beyond compare, the steel is super hard yet durable. Because of the construction (soft iron of the main chisel body with hard steel - like Rc 64 - hammer welded on) there’s no need to mess with secondary bevels which makes sharpening simple. Also chopping with these chisels and a steel hammer is a religious experience lol. They don’t “feel” like any other chisel I’ve ever used.
Pick up one or two and try them out, see what you think. If you send Stan a private message I’m sure he could provide much more assistance...

[John C Cox]

If you want them individually - I would first start with a call to The Best Things and see if he would order you one or two... If he can't get them this way - you can always order them straight from the UK... Or put a want ad here on SMC and see if anybody has a couple they want to pass along...

I got a set of them and I like them very very much....