Warren - you know exactly what I am talking about because you did it... But you also did it as part of a historical woodworking program - and you showed people how to do it because nobody was doing it.... It was a few guys in the entire USA like yourself, probably George Wilson, Jim Krenov, and eventually Roy Underhill showing people how to do it so it wouldn't die out... There were no articles in Popular Mechanics or the woodworking mags about making your own wood planes...
Hobby woodworkers making their own woodies was nowhere near a "common" practice done by average woodworkers in the 1970's... You couldn't get irons unless you made your own or stole them out of old broken woodies... Nowhere even close to what we have today where it's not uncommon for a hobby woodworker to make a plane or two just to do it.... My grandfather made stuff for 60 years and never even fooled with one (probably by choice)... My dad has for 50 years and no wood planes there either.... Yet I have made 2 now...
One feature of modern chisels (at least Western chisels; I can't speak knowledgeably about Japanese chisels) is the up and down variations in quality that seems to be seen. As one example, I have several Robert Sorby pattern maker's chisels that take and hold an edge just fine for all uses I've put them to.reject. Others reject them as much too soft. (And Stan rejects them as softer than his Japanese chisels, a point I'll happily concede.) The reports on the Sorby chisels seems to vary depending on when they were made, not in some linear fashion of steady decline, but in a more seemingly random fashion. Mine are relatively recent manufacture, probably ten years as I recall; they were a gift so I can't be too precise. I've seen variability in heat treat distortions in plane blades from "after-market" blade makers as well, some coming out with nicely flat backs while others from a different order from the same maker are frustratingly hollow or bowed.
I suspect that some of our present day makers aren't quite as experienced and knowledgeable as their predecessors.
Fair winds and following seas,
Jim Waldron
Derek, are the modern koyamaichi as good as yours that you have had for a while? I know they use a mechanical press to forge weld the two layers of steel currently - would that still be as sublime as a completely hand forged chisel? I ask because the koyamaichi chisels were on my wishlist for a little while, and the quoted section is very high praise.
Jim - you hit right head on the biggest thing chisel makers fight.... If you look at the history of Berg - old man Berg was constantly fooling with heat treatment and alloy trying to get better results out of his chisels.. Less warpage, more consistent heat treatment/hardness, fewer problems with cracks, decarburization, etc... He never stopped chasing "Better".... But that also means that some batches were "worse"... It's simply the definition of "Average" - some are better, some are worse.. If they are all "the same" - your measuring equipment is not good enough.
But a hand maker has one major luxury that a factory does not have. That luxury is the ability to chase "perfect".. If the steel needs a bit different treatment or a bit different tempering to reach certain results - they can do this... The factory cannot. They shove a big batch of parts into the oven and hits "Start".. They run a fixed process - and out comes what comes out...
The other luxury of a small maker is that one batch of steel lasts a lot longer... I was looking at Marples chisels at Woodcraft the other day... There was a batch ID etched on the blades... There were 8 different "batch" ID's within the stock on their rack... What differentiates a batch? Steel lot, heat treatment, operator, shift, production date? No idea... But that is a lot of different production codes.... I found a set that has the same batch ID as the Marples chisel I bought that was very good - and it came home with me... The whole set is very good... But I have heard reports that others are too soft.. What happened there? Steel? Heat treatment? Training a new operator? No idea...
A Japanese smith may buy 1 batch of steel per year... Some may buy 1 batch every several years... Certainly the wrought iron backer could be "the same" for 20+ years - whatever he can get out of a Ton or two of 200 year old anchor chain, boat anchor, or bridge pieces...
Last edited by John C Cox; 03-19-2018 at 4:08 PM.
Some weird ideas in this post. When I made planes in the 1970's I was working at home, in the basement, not "as a part of a historical woodworking program". At that time there were several catalogs that offered wooden planes: Woodcraft Supply, which at that time catered exclusively to hand tool woodworkers, Garrett Wade, also much more woodworking and less gadgets, and a few others. Both Wade and Woodcraft offered double iron coffin smoothers and English style jack planes at very reasonable prices. And a company in New York, The Tool Works, offered a long list of single and double irons, both tapered and parallel in their catalog, handy for making wooden planes.
Warren; to be fair you were the 1 that raised the initial confusion.
Nobody was making wooden planes 40 years ago? It is not the first time I was called Nobody. I was making wooden double iron planes more than 40 years ago. The jack plane I made in January 1978 is still the one I use.
Speak for yourself, John.
The Japanese blacksmiths that make chisels for me are using material they stockpiled 15 and 20 years ago. They tell me that is very difficult to get Hitachi to supply them with white and blue paper steel nowadays because the demand is so low. So when they do order, they must do so in bulk and divide it among the blacksmith community they reside in. There is also a lot of material available from retiring/dead blacksmiths who bought in bulk in past years.
Hi Hasin
There is a slight, but discernible difference between the 1980 and 2010 vintage chisels. It is hard to put a finger on it. The older chisels look slightly different .. softer lines. In use, they seem a little easier to hone. Not enough difference to write home about.
Regards from Perth
Derek
My knife making might not make me a huge expert here. I have tried my hand at forging, but came to the conclusion that the time my day job requires would not allow me to learn it well enough presently. I have made many knives via stock removal methods mostly using high carbon steel, much of it salvaged from old saw blades. I take it as a given that only about half will make it through heat treatment and give the results that I want.
Unfortunately I knew more about 5 years ago when I did this a lot than what I still remember today.
What I did learn through hard use of many knives though is that I do not like many of the modern steels. I am a big fan of 1095 in fixed blade knives (and have made some from 01 that were similar). I have given away all my benchmade and other fancy steel knives, I never seem to get the edge that I want compared to 1095 and similar blades and I dont mind the sharpening involved to keep the HC blades in good working order.
I would be interested in trying some Japanese chisels, what would I likely be looking at from an investment perspective? I probably can afford the very best but would want something representative of the potential quality, even if it means only buying one to start and then adding slowly. Also what type of steel hammer is used for them?
Would the ones on the LV site described as Japanese dovetail chisels fit this category? Also would you want the separate set of their "push chisels"
I would be interested in trying some Japanese chisels, what would I likely be looking at from an investment perspective? I probably can afford the very best but would want something representative of the potential quality, even if it means only buying one to start and then adding slowly. Also what type of steel hammer is used for them?Hi BrandonWould the ones on the LV site described as Japanese dovetail chisels fit this category? Also would you want the separate set of their "push chisels"
If you want "investment" Japanese chisels, we should wait for Stan to comment. Personally, I do not believe there is such a thing - unless you do not use them and they are irreplaceable.
The site to purchase from - not LV for investment quality - is Japan-Tool Be prepared to wait for delivery. My Kiyohisa slicks were a 3 year wait several years ago. I believe that they are now a 5 or 6 year wait ...
Regards from Perth
Derek
The hand made Japanese chisel market is a lot like the American custom knife market.
There is bog standard factory made stuff
There is utility grade hand made stuff meant for contractors
There is first quality grade hand made stuff meant for professionals. These are often made in small workshops and the smiths do use power tools, presses, and buy alloy..
There is insanely high priced presentation grade stuff that elevates chisel making to an Art... These may be fully hand made - and machines may not touch them depending on the maker... These guys may go so far as to smelt their own steel for the blades out of ore...
Price wise...
The factory made stuff can run $20/3 piece set
The high end could easily run you $5,000 for one chisel...
Pick your poison.