chisel steel

[Warren Mickley]

In the woodworking universe - 40 years ago you could get a blue Stanley plane, a Record, or a German made woodie if you could find one.. Maybe a Miller's Falls if you could find them outside the North East USA or Titan down under.... And nobody even considered making their own woodies... And look at where we are now... Lots and lots of people making their own high quality furniture... The demand for tools is on the rise - and there is a hobby universe starting to take shape......

Nobody was making wooden planes 40 years ago? It is not the first time I was called Nobody. I was making wooden double iron planes more than 40 years ago. The jack plane I made in January 1978 is still the one I use.

Speak for yourself, John.

[John C Cox]

Warren - you know exactly what I am talking about because you did it... But you also did it as part of a historical woodworking program - and you showed people how to do it because nobody was doing it.... It was a few guys in the entire USA like yourself, probably George Wilson, Jim Krenov, and eventually Roy Underhill showing people how to do it so it wouldn't die out... There were no articles in Popular Mechanics or the woodworking mags about making your own wood planes...

Hobby woodworkers making their own woodies was nowhere near a "common" practice done by average woodworkers in the 1970's... You couldn't get irons unless you made your own or stole them out of old broken woodies... Nowhere even close to what we have today where it's not uncommon for a hobby woodworker to make a plane or two just to do it.... My grandfather made stuff for 60 years and never even fooled with one (probably by choice)... My dad has for 50 years and no wood planes there either.... Yet I have made 2 now...

[James Waldron]

One feature of modern chisels (at least Western chisels; I can't speak knowledgeably about Japanese chisels) is the up and down variations in quality that seems to be seen. As one example, I have several Robert Sorby pattern maker's chisels that take and hold an edge just fine for all uses I've put them to.reject. Others reject them as much too soft. (And Stan rejects them as softer than his Japanese chisels, a point I'll happily concede.) The reports on the Sorby chisels seems to vary depending on when they were made, not in some linear fashion of steady decline, but in a more seemingly random fashion. Mine are relatively recent manufacture, probably ten years as I recall; they were a gift so I can't be too precise. I've seen variability in heat treat distortions in plane blades from "after-market" blade makers as well, some coming out with nicely flat backs while others from a different order from the same maker are frustratingly hollow or bowed.

I suspect that some of our present day makers aren't quite as experienced and knowledgeable as their predecessors.

[Hasin Haroon]

The second issue is that of vintage vs modern steel. I agree with you that good laminated Japanese blades are sublime. I am reminded of this when using my Kiyohisa slicks. The Koyamaichi mentori I have used for the past dozen years are better than the best modern Western chisel I have used.

Derek

Derek, are the modern koyamaichi as good as yours that you have had for a while? I know they use a mechanical press to forge weld the two layers of steel currently - would that still be as sublime as a completely hand forged chisel? I ask because the koyamaichi chisels were on my wishlist for a little while, and the quoted section is very high praise.

[John C Cox]

One feature of modern chisels (at least Western chisels; I can't speak knowledgeably about Japanese chisels) is the up and down variations in quality that seems to be seen. As one example, I have several Robert Sorby pattern maker's chisels that take and hold an edge just fine for all uses I've put them to.reject. Others reject them as much too soft. (And Stan rejects them as softer than his Japanese chisels, a point I'll happily concede.) The reports on the Sorby chisels seems to vary depending on when they were made, not in some linear fashion of steady decline, but in a more seemingly random fashion. Mine are relatively recent manufacture, probably ten years as I recall; they were a gift so I can't be too precise. I've seen variability in heat treat distortions in plane blades from "after-market" blade makers as well, some coming out with nicely flat backs while others from a different order from the same maker are frustratingly hollow or bowed.

I suspect that some of our present day makers aren't quite as experienced and knowledgeable as their predecessors.

Jim - you hit right head on the biggest thing chisel makers fight.... If you look at the history of Berg - old man Berg was constantly fooling with heat treatment and alloy trying to get better results out of his chisels.. Less warpage, more consistent heat treatment/hardness, fewer problems with cracks, decarburization, etc... He never stopped chasing "Better".... But that also means that some batches were "worse"... It's simply the definition of "Average" - some are better, some are worse.. If they are all "the same" - your measuring equipment is not good enough.

But a hand maker has one major luxury that a factory does not have. That luxury is the ability to chase "perfect".. If the steel needs a bit different treatment or a bit different tempering to reach certain results - they can do this... The factory cannot. They shove a big batch of parts into the oven and hits "Start".. They run a fixed process - and out comes what comes out...

The other luxury of a small maker is that one batch of steel lasts a lot longer... I was looking at Marples chisels at Woodcraft the other day... There was a batch ID etched on the blades... There were 8 different "batch" ID's within the stock on their rack... What differentiates a batch? Steel lot, heat treatment, operator, shift, production date? No idea... But that is a lot of different production codes.... I found a set that has the same batch ID as the Marples chisel I bought that was very good - and it came home with me... The whole set is very good... But I have heard reports that others are too soft.. What happened there? Steel? Heat treatment? Training a new operator? No idea...

A Japanese smith may buy 1 batch of steel per year... Some may buy 1 batch every several years... Certainly the wrought iron backer could be "the same" for 20+ years - whatever he can get out of a Ton or two of 200 year old anchor chain, boat anchor, or bridge pieces...

[Warren Mickley]

Warren - you know exactly what I am talking about because you did it... But you also did it as part of a historical woodworking program - and you showed people how to do it because nobody was doing it.... It was a few guys in the entire USA like yourself, probably George Wilson, Jim Krenov, and eventually Roy Underhill showing people how to do it so it wouldn't die out... There were no articles in Popular Mechanics or the woodworking mags about making your own wood planes...

Hobby woodworkers making their own woodies was nowhere near a "common" practice done by average woodworkers in the 1970's... You couldn't get irons unless you made your own or stole them out of old broken woodies... Nowhere even close to what we have today where it's not uncommon for a hobby woodworker to make a plane or two just to do it.... My grandfather made stuff for 60 years and never even fooled with one (probably by choice)... My dad has for 50 years and no wood planes there either.... Yet I have made 2 now...

Some weird ideas in this post. When I made planes in the 1970's I was working at home, in the basement, not "as a part of a historical woodworking program". At that time there were several catalogs that offered wooden planes: Woodcraft Supply, which at that time catered exclusively to hand tool woodworkers, Garrett Wade, also much more woodworking and less gadgets, and a few others. Both Wade and Woodcraft offered double iron coffin smoothers and English style jack planes at very reasonable prices. And a company in New York, The Tool Works, offered a long list of single and double irons, both tapered and parallel in their catalog, handy for making wooden planes.

[Stewie Simpson]

Some weird ideas in this post. When I made planes in the 1970's I was working at home, in the basement, not "as a part of a historical woodworking program". At that time there were several catalogs that offered wooden planes: Woodcraft Supply, which at that time catered exclusively to hand tool woodworkers, Garrett Wade, also much more woodworking and less gadgets, and a few others. Both Wade and Woodcraft offered double iron coffin smoothers and English style jack planes at very reasonable prices. And a company in New York, The Tool Works, offered a long list of single and double irons, both tapered and parallel in their catalog, handy for making wooden planes.

Warren; to be fair you were the 1 that raised the initial confusion.

Nobody was making wooden planes 40 years ago? It is not the first time I was called Nobody. I was making wooden double iron planes more than 40 years ago. The jack plane I made in January 1978 is still the one I use.

Speak for yourself, John.

[Stanley Covington]

Jim - you hit right head on the biggest thing chisel makers fight.... If you look at the history of Berg - old man Berg was constantly fooling with heat treatment and alloy trying to get better results out of his chisels.. Less warpage, more consistent heat treatment/hardness, fewer problems with cracks, decarburization, etc... He never stopped chasing "Better".... But that also means that some batches were "worse"... It's simply the definition of "Average" - some are better, some are worse.. If they are all "the same" - your measuring equipment is not good enough.

But a hand maker has one major luxury that a factory does not have. That luxury is the ability to chase "perfect".. If the steel needs a bit different treatment or a bit different tempering to reach certain results - they can do this... The factory cannot. They shove a big batch of parts into the oven and hits "Start".. They run a fixed process - and out comes what comes out...

The other luxury of a small maker is that one batch of steel lasts a lot longer... I was looking at Marples chisels at Woodcraft the other day... There was a batch ID etched on the blades... There were 8 different "batch" ID's within the stock on their rack... What differentiates a batch? Steel lot, heat treatment, operator, shift, production date? No idea... But that is a lot of different production codes.... I found a set that has the same batch ID as the Marples chisel I bought that was very good - and it came home with me... The whole set is very good... But I have heard reports that others are too soft.. What happened there? Steel? Heat treatment? Training a new operator? No idea...

A Japanese smith may buy 1 batch of steel per year... Some may buy 1 batch every several years... Certainly the wrought iron backer could be "the same" for 20+ years - whatever he can get out of a Ton or two of 200 year old anchor chain, boat anchor, or bridge pieces...

The Japanese blacksmiths that make chisels for me are using material they stockpiled 15 and 20 years ago. They tell me that is very difficult to get Hitachi to supply them with white and blue paper steel nowadays because the demand is so low. So when they do order, they must do so in bulk and divide it among the blacksmith community they reside in. There is also a lot of material available from retiring/dead blacksmiths who bought in bulk in past years.

[Derek Cohen]

Derek, are the modern koyamaichi as good as yours that you have had for a while? I know they use a mechanical press to forge weld the two layers of steel currently - would that still be as sublime as a completely hand forged chisel? I ask because the koyamaichi chisels were on my wishlist for a little while, and the quoted section is very high praise.

Hi Hasin

There is a slight, but discernible difference between the 1980 and 2010 vintage chisels. It is hard to put a finger on it. The older chisels look slightly different .. softer lines. In use, they seem a little easier to hone. Not enough difference to write home about.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[ernest dubois]

The Japanese blacksmiths that make chisels for me are using material they stockpiled 15 and 20 years ago. They tell me that is very difficult to get Hitachi to supply them with white and blue paper steel nowadays because the demand is so low. So when they do order, they must do so in bulk and divide it among the blacksmith community they reside in. There is also a lot of material available from retiring/dead blacksmiths who bought in bulk in past years.

Maybe they can order it from Dictum out of Metten who's got it on hand. It's only a joke. I would like to get my hands on the Hitachi as well, in the meantime the smid I go to is using Uddeholm which he does wonders with.

[Brandon Speaks]

Stan, I mentioned Japanese chisels earlier, as well as Veritas PM-V11. Another point I touched on was that Western and Japanese chisels tend to be used differently. Finally, commentary has included vintage Western laminated blades and their worth. There is a thread that weaves its way through this, and in your post, that I would like to toss up for further discussion.

I am also aware that Brandon, the OP, is a knife maker and understands steels, and so would enjoy his participation here as well.

There are two issues: the first is how the decision to purchase Japanese and Western chisels is influenced by the way they are used. Western bench chisels tend to be all rounders, that is, one can hit them with a mallet or push them by hand into the cut. By contrast, when I pick up a Japanese bench chisel, I also always pick up a gennou. It is rare that I will push a bench chisel. If this is needed, a slick is instead used. (Yes I know that a hooped chisel can be pushed, but the Japanese chisels are designed to be struck, and best used this way).

The blade length of the average oire nomi is short compared with the Western bench chisel. The two chisels tend to have a different feel, a different balance. Recommending Japanese chisels because of their wonderful blades ignores that the newbie may find the change unsettling. I switch between the two styles all the time, and do not think much about it, but am reminded of this by this thread.

Perhaps Warren might comment on the vintage laminated Western chisels he uses, and whether he has compared the styles with laminated Japanese in regard to their ergonomics.

The second issue is that of vintage vs modern steel. I agree with you that good laminated Japanese blades are sublime. I am reminded of this when using my Kiyohisa slicks. The Koyamaichi mentori I have used for the past dozen years are better than the best modern Western chisel I have used. There is no doubting that these blades have been the result of many years - centuries - of experience with steel and its preparation. What of the Western counterparts available today? The point you made above is that shortcuts are taken to create a working blade, and that the product is mediocre (compared to what Japan can offer). That is not the part I wish to draw attention to (as I agree). Over the past 10 years I have been exposed to a number of different modern steels: A2, M2, M4, 3V, D2 and a few others. The first one that I have been excited about is PM-V11. This is the first use of powdered metallurgy that balances edge durability and steel workability (i.e. ability to sharpen easily). In this, there is a similarity to laminated blades to achieve the same goals.

This is not about PM-V11, however. My thoughts lie with how manufacturers in the future will be able to design steel composition in a way that the past blade masters could only have dreamed of doing. The question is not whether this will become a reality, but when it will be commonly available for woodworking tools. PM-V11 is just the beginning. I know of at least one other manufacturer using PM steel in chisels.

Regards from Perth

Derek

My knife making might not make me a huge expert here. I have tried my hand at forging, but came to the conclusion that the time my day job requires would not allow me to learn it well enough presently. I have made many knives via stock removal methods mostly using high carbon steel, much of it salvaged from old saw blades. I take it as a given that only about half will make it through heat treatment and give the results that I want.

Unfortunately I knew more about 5 years ago when I did this a lot than what I still remember today.

What I did learn through hard use of many knives though is that I do not like many of the modern steels. I am a big fan of 1095 in fixed blade knives (and have made some from 01 that were similar). I have given away all my benchmade and other fancy steel knives, I never seem to get the edge that I want compared to 1095 and similar blades and I dont mind the sharpening involved to keep the HC blades in good working order.

I would be interested in trying some Japanese chisels, what would I likely be looking at from an investment perspective? I probably can afford the very best but would want something representative of the potential quality, even if it means only buying one to start and then adding slowly. Also what type of steel hammer is used for them?

[Brandon Speaks]

Would the ones on the LV site described as Japanese dovetail chisels fit this category? Also would you want the separate set of their "push chisels"

[Derek Cohen]

I would be interested in trying some Japanese chisels, what would I likely be looking at from an investment perspective? I probably can afford the very best but would want something representative of the potential quality, even if it means only buying one to start and then adding slowly. Also what type of steel hammer is used for them?

Would the ones on the LV site described as Japanese dovetail chisels fit this category? Also would you want the separate set of their "push chisels"

Hi Brandon

If you want "investment" Japanese chisels, we should wait for Stan to comment. Personally, I do not believe there is such a thing - unless you do not use them and they are irreplaceable.

The site to purchase from - not LV for investment quality - is Japan-Tool Be prepared to wait for delivery. My Kiyohisa slicks were a 3 year wait several years ago. I believe that they are now a 5 or 6 year wait ...



Regards from Perth

Derek

[John C Cox]

I would be interested in trying some Japanese chisels, what would I likely be looking at from an investment perspective? I probably can afford the very best but would want something representative of the potential quality, even if it means only buying one to start and then adding slowly. Also what type of steel hammer is used for them?

The hand made Japanese chisel market is a lot like the American custom knife market.
There is bog standard factory made stuff
There is utility grade hand made stuff meant for contractors
There is first quality grade hand made stuff meant for professionals. These are often made in small workshops and the smiths do use power tools, presses, and buy alloy..
There is insanely high priced presentation grade stuff that elevates chisel making to an Art... These may be fully hand made - and machines may not touch them depending on the maker... These guys may go so far as to smelt their own steel for the blades out of ore...

Price wise...
The factory made stuff can run $20/3 piece set
The high end could easily run you $5,000 for one chisel...

Pick your poison.

[Brandon Speaks]

Hi Brandon

If you want "investment" Japanese chisels, we should wait for Stan to comment. Personally, I do not believe there is such a thing - unless you do not use them and they are irreplaceable.

The site to purchase from - not LV for investment quality - is Japan-Tool Be prepared to wait for delivery. My Kiyohisa slicks were a 3 year wait several years ago. I believe that they are now a 5 or 6 year wait ...



Regards from Perth

Derek

All I meant by investment is what should I plan to spend. They will certainly be user tools.