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Thread: How do I make a stopped groove in a dovetail?

  1. #16
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    You’d be shocked at how quickly you can do this with just a marking gauge and chisel. Score deep lines and just chisel our the waste.

  2. #17
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    I would define the ends of the groove by drilling a hole at the ends and then cut the slot.

    On second thought, I would just chop it. That's why I learned to chop slots and dovetails.
    Last edited by lowell holmes; 03-16-2018 at 6:33 PM.

  3. #18
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    Hi Fred

    I applaud your creativity in coming up with your solution. If it works for you, then it is good. You asked my opinion (PM) how I could improve the method. Well, this is me, and not you ... I would do the task differently.

    The part that concerns me about your method is that "Because the LV small plow only has one depth stop, I couldn't use just that". " I advance the blade every pass". This reduces control of the result, and the is the risk that the depth of each groove is not the same. [EDIT: on reflection, that is not a significant issue in this case as long as they are similar in depth]

    There are several ways to do this. The first is to not do it and, instead, to use a half-blind dovetail at each end. This will hide the groove.

    Of course that is not what you want, since you choose through dovetails, so ...

    Consider that a rebate is essentially the same cut as a groove. A stopped rebate is essentially a stopped groove. I have made stopped rebates with a plane ... keep in mind that the remaining end is weak until the pieces are glued together.

    The joinery is quite simple, just requiring an extra step, which is to excavate a mortice for the skate to travel. If you do not do this, the plane will create a curved bottom, not a flat one.

    The article is here:
    http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/MovingForward.html

    These are a few pics to illustrate ...









    Here is a third method, this time using a router plane. Again it is illustrated with a rebate - however I have done the same with a plough plane. In both cases, the groove/rebate is completed with a router plane. Here you can see the curved groove if you do not first create a space for the skate ...






    A fourth method is simply to chisel and use the router plane. In the case of a tray, which is shorter than these examples, this is what I would do. The downside is that the router plane blade requires more control to stay inside the groove and not spelch the sides.

    After all this, you find you prefer your extra depth stop/fence method, and I would not criticise this at all. As I said before, these are all just options. There are no "musts" if it works for you, just preferences.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Last edited by Derek Cohen; 03-16-2018 at 10:10 PM.

  4. #19
    Thank you Derek! I appreciate you taking a look at this for me, and for the additional ideas.

    Best regards,
    Fred
    "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

    “If you want to know what a man's like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals.”

  5. #20
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    I'm also partial to router planes for this sort of work, with a fence or batten to control position.

    It may be worth noting here that the LV Hinge Mortise plan has long, flat, parallel sides that register nicely to a batten, and uses the same blades as their router plane. I've used that to cut stopped grooves/dados more than once. I also have the LV detail rabbet planes, which can be used to get reasonably close to the end of a stopped groove, though you have to alternate them with the router plane to maintain clearance for the detail rabbets' toes.

  6. #21
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    I've found this demonstration by Brian Holcombe to be helpful: https://youtu.be/9RGHpf6t8dc.

    He scores the sides with a pull saw and then uses a router plane. You might have to start and stop each end with a small mortise.

  7. #22
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    Joe, be careful following that method. What Brian is doing there is excellent technique for the dado he is making, he is working across the grain. To try this with a groove which runs with the grain, especially with a thin Japanese saw, is to invite the blade to run with the grain - in spite of the fence he is using. I am not saying not to do it. I am just pointing out the risk. I would create the boundaries of the groove using a fenced cutting gauge. This will better keep the lines straight. And light, light strokes to start.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  8. #23
    an alternative to stopped grooves is to plug them. I forgot if one or both of them have shown a dovetail box plugged skillfully, though I always stop groove mine: Paul Sellers / Rob Cosman.

    Simon

  9. #24
    I have never seen a stopped groove like you are imagining in traditional work. For myself I have only made stopped grooves when repairing 20th century machine work. The traditional way for making a tray is to dovetail the sides and nail on the bottom. The bottom can be slightly larger than the tray or flush with the sides or the joint can be covered with a small moulding.

    Here are some alternatives: you can dovetail the sides, but have a miter for the bottom 1/2 inch or so (depending on scale of piece). That way you can make a groove at the bottom in the mitered portion which is hidden. You might want to practice this joint as some people have trouble have trouble visualizing the transition between the mitered and dovetailed portion.

    You could groove only on to opposite sides and have the bottom just butt up at the ends.

    You could do as Simon suggests and plug the holes afterwards; this is a traditional method and hardly noticeable.

    You could make a half hidden dovetail like a drawer joint to cover up the groove.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowell holmes View Post
    I would define the ends of the groove by drilling a hole at the ends and then cut the slot.

    On second thought, I would just chop it. That's why I learned to chop slots and dovetails.
    I've done both, that is to say drilled a hole to establish a starting point, then chopped (pared) it square and true to the groove. It makes a convenient place for chips to go.
    Sharp solves all manner of problems.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warren Mickley View Post
    I have never seen a stopped groove like you are imagining in traditional work. For myself I have only made stopped grooves when repairing 20th century machine work. The traditional way for making a tray is to dovetail the sides and nail on the bottom. The bottom can be slightly larger than the tray or flush with the sides or the joint can be covered with a small moulding.

    Here are some alternatives: you can dovetail the sides, but have a miter for the bottom 1/2 inch or so (depending on scale of piece). That way you can make a groove at the bottom in the mitered portion which is hidden. You might want to practice this joint as some people have trouble have trouble visualizing the transition between the mitered and dovetailed portion.

    You could groove only on to opposite sides and have the bottom just butt up at the ends.

    You could do as Simon suggests and plug the holes afterwards; this is a traditional method and hardly noticeable.

    You could make a half hidden dovetail like a drawer joint to cover up the groove.
    Having provided several options earlier, what Warren is stating here was something I had intended to mention. I agree with him - stopped rebates and stopped grooves are machine made. The methods we are offering up here are to replace machinery. I warned that this is a weak joint until glued up. Be careful if you proceed.

    Alternatives include through dovetails with mitred ends. That will hide a groove. Another is to use slips all round with mitred ends. I would build the slips flush with the top of the tray bottom.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  12. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Warren Mickley View Post
    I have never seen a stopped groove like you are imagining in traditional work. For myself I have only made stopped grooves when repairing 20th century machine work. The traditional way for making a tray is to dovetail the sides and nail on the bottom. The bottom can be slightly larger than the tray or flush with the sides or the joint can be covered with a small moulding.

    Here are some alternatives: you can dovetail the sides, but have a miter for the bottom 1/2 inch or so (depending on scale of piece). That way you can make a groove at the bottom in the mitered portion which is hidden. You might want to practice this joint as some people have trouble have trouble visualizing the transition between the mitered and dovetailed portion.

    You could groove only on to opposite sides and have the bottom just butt up at the ends.

    You could do as Simon suggests and plug the holes afterwards; this is a traditional method and hardly noticeable.

    You could make a half hidden dovetail like a drawer joint to cover up the groove.
    Thank you Warren. I always appreciate your traditional perspective. I did not know that stopped grooves are a machine age method. I mistakenly thought that I was cutting corners if I didn't do something more elegant, like a stopped groove.

    Best regards,
    Fred
    "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

    “If you want to know what a man's like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals.”

  13. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Cohen View Post
    I would build the slips flush with the top of the tray bottom.
    Thank you Derek. I'm thinking of doing exactly that now.

    As always, I appreciate your advice,
    Fred
    "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

    “If you want to know what a man's like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals.”

  14. #29
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    Derek and Fred, I’m trying to visualize the “slip” solution. Could someone explain what you mean by a “slip?”
    Thanks!

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Mueller View Post
    Derek and Fred, I’m trying to visualize the “slip” solution. Could someone explain what you mean by a “slip?”
    Thanks!
    Slips are supports for drawer bottoms. They are used when the drawer side is too narrow to be grooved.



    The drawer bottom slides into the groove.



    Below, the edge of the slip is beaded. The top is flush with the drawer bottom ....



    Slips are strong since they are glued long grain to long grain.

    What would be useful for Fred's tray is the slip I used on my first journey in this direction. Here I used slips on the drawer back instead of a groove ...



    The construction should be self-explanatory ...







    Regards from Perth

    Derek

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