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Thread: Cutting board fail at 3 months

  1. #1

    Cutting board fail at 3 months

    End-grain cutting board I made in December. About 1 3/8" thick.

    I suspect I didn't use enough Titebond III? When I glued it up, I was worried that I wasn't getting enough squeeze out.

    IMG_20180302_190904.jpg

  2. #2
    Looks like the wood broke and the glue is still holding. I think everyone has a moment when they realize that the glue is not the whole story. You will get some good help here.

  3. #3
    I know many will disagree but if you make cutting boards over time and keep some for yourself and use them actively, you will soon find that TBIII is not as bulletproof as people think. It is very thin, has issues with creep, and is very prone to failure. We have torture tested TBIII in cutting boards, exterior tool handles that live 24-7/365 outdoors, exterior glue ups of many kinds. It fails nearly 100% of the time.

    I agree with Mel that around the walnut it looks like the wood may have failed but the adjacent sides look like a glue line failure.

    End grain tops and boards are tough. Most in the commercial world would not be using PVA.

  4. #4
    Join Date
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    That’s an odd spot for a failure. Usually it’s at the edge of a joint. But if moisture found its way in there that’d explain it.

    Mark - what glue would you recommend?

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Day View Post
    That’s an odd spot for a failure. Usually it’s at the edge of a joint. But if moisture found its way in there that’d explain it.

    Mark - what glue would you recommend?
    I think moisture got in there. The rest of the board shows small cracks at the glue line. So I suspect I didn't use enough glue to "seal" the glue line.

    Indeed, what glue should I use on my next one?

  6. #6
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    Excessive clamping pressure can sometimes squeeze away too much glue and this type failure can result. I can't say that is what caused the problem in this case. I can say that I have used Titebond III in applications like Adirondack chairs that sit out in the weather for years and my failure rate is zero percent. I have seen glue creep but that is an advantage when you have pieces being glued together in different grain directions where expansion/contraction will cause separation and failure. If you are in doubt, use epoxy.
    Last edited by Art Mann; 03-15-2018 at 3:35 PM.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Day View Post
    That’s an odd spot for a failure. Usually it’s at the edge of a joint. But if moisture found its way in there that’d explain it.

    Mark - what glue would you recommend?
    You know that any cutting board thread that involves finishes or adhesives usually turns into a royal **** storm (the bleeped word is not poop but the more pertinent version of the word). We only use PU or Epoxy now. I can tell you first hand, for us, that TBIII creeps horribly which speaks to glue line movement. For me personally its the worst glue on the planet though I know many use it by default for all their work and have great success but its never been the case for us. Ive long believed that many think if original is good, 1 has got to be better, 2 ever better, and 3 is the mac daddy. It doesnt help that the bottles have "ultimate" on them. We buy TB Super and Original and use it for everything. But counter tops, cutting boards, end grain work, wet locations, or exterior, is all PU or epoxy.

    Perfect example. We make boards to give away to customers at the end of the year and always make a few for ourselves and friends. Our personal boards with TBIII? They are still alive, have splits at the ends, clearly show plenty of creep, enough that you can feel it easily with your fingers or fingernails. That said, we treat our cutting boards like they are something we cherish. We use them daily. Lightly wipe them down with warm soapy water. Always stand them on edge with one end up on the lip of the sink so only two points of contact and the edge on the counter isnt in the puddle of water that drips off. Now on the other hand we have cutting boards at SO's mom's house. This is the torture test. Boards are viciously soaked and scrubbed with scalding hot soapy water dozens of times a day whether a bread crumb sat on the board or you butchered a hog on the board. Its something akin to a torture test in an R&D facility. Exact same boards, exact same material, and they fail consistently with TBIII in the torture test.

    Couple years ago for the heck of it I made several cant hook handles for the sawmill out of Hickory. Laminated 3 4/4 boards into 3x3 blanks and turned handles on the lathe. I would never laminate an outdoor tool handle but this was a good chance for a TBIII torture test. Three handles with TBIII, two with PU, and two with epoxy. Turned, sanded, heavily oiled for three coats. All live outside in the weather all seasons. All three TBIII handles failed within the year. The PU handles show some slight glue line. Epoxy, none.

    We dont use TBII or III for anything though they would be perfectly fine (overkill) for interior work.

    This is just our experience. Use what ever you find works best for you. TBIII is nearly double the price of original or super so we just dont keep it in the shop.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Art Mann View Post
    Excessive clamping pressure can sometimes squeeze away too much glue and this type failure can result. I can't say that is what caused the problem in this case. I can say that I have used Titebond III in applications like Adirondack chairs that sit out in the weather for years and my failure rate is zero percent. I have seen glue creep but that is an advantage when you have pieces being glued together in different grain directions where expansion/contraction will cause separation and failure.

    Art,
    That topic has been hotly debated for years on hobby and commercial forums. I always default to an article that was in FWW years and years ago that showed the math with regards to clamping force required on long grain glue joints and the consensus of the article was that virtually no average shop, even using I Bar clamps spaced 6" apart could ever possibly apply #1 adequate clamping pressure, or #2 no where near enough clamping pressure to every in any way squeeze the PVA out of the joint and "starve the joint". A starved joint is a joint that didnt have enough glue in the first place. If your using epoxy, for sure you can over clamp. But there is no way you can apply too much pressure to a PVA joint using any clamps commonly found in a home or even your average commercial shop. We are talking long grain here now.

    There are numerous accounts on the web of people testing this theory. A lightly clamped joint will split on the glueline with a chisel and a mallet. Moderately clamped will show some wood fiber failure. And a joint that is clamped with every ounce of force that can possibly applied will fail outbound of the glue line.

    Its worth a few hours in the shop to try it out.

  9. #9
    For reference here is a great thread from another forum. If you read through the replies there are a few tests of glue line failure. One using 40,000lbs of clamping force and then splitting the joint the following day.

    http://www.woodweb.com/forum_fdse_fi...ng/807783.html

    There is no amount of clamping force that is too much with PVA, and I would say PU. Epoxy yes.

  10. #10
    Looks like it failed at the glue joint to me.I have made many cutting boards over the years and use Gorilla Glue (the brown stuff not the white)... It's 100% waterproof. I know with cutting boards you are supposed to give them a coating of food safe finish every couple of months or so to keep them sealed but I have ones I use that I have never re-coated in 5 years and have never had a joint come apart.

  11. #11
    The tech reps at Titebond say they have never seen a PVA failure due to "glue starved joint from over clamping"

  12. #12
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    I am with Mark. I have had similar thing happen to me with Titebond III more than once and I don't trust it as much as other people do. The only glue failure I have had in all my woodworking were all with this glue (varioius stages); never with Titebond I or epoxy.

  13. #13
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    Here is an interesting read where I think Gene (aka wood doctor) has explained the cause of your problems. http://www.woodweb.com/forum_fdse_fi...ng/773233.html

    Go search the woodweb for using David Sochar's (in Mark B's link) name and you will find a wealth of discussions on TBIII. Not my fav.

    Titebond recommends somewhere between 100 - 200psi bond pressure. Nobody ever achieves that except for factories in very specific applications, nor do we need to for most woodwork applications. If we assume the piece is 1.375"x16" the clamping force would need to have exceeded something like 2,200 - 4,400lb total. I too doubt that excess clamping was the problem.

  14. #14
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    what is PU?

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Bolton View Post
    Now on the other hand we have cutting boards at SO's mom's house. This is the torture test. Boards are viciously soaked and scrubbed with scalding hot soapy water dozens of times a day whether a bread crumb sat on the board or you butchered a hog on the board. Its something akin to a torture test in an R&D facility. Exact same boards, exact same material, and they fail consistently with TBIII in the torture test.
    My mother in law viciously soaked things too! Thanks Mark. I love test results that make me laugh.
    "Whether you think you can, or you think you can’t - you’re right."
    - Henry Ford

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