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Thread: I've got turners' block

  1. #16
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
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    Lummi Island, WA
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    665
    If its form you wish to work on, get Raffan’s book - The Art of the Bowl, and look through it often. If its technique you need to work on, get a plain log - poplar or whatever is available cut it into as many blanks as you can - large and small - and turn them all into shavings. Green wood works best for me, I don’t even worry about whats going happen as it dries. Only save the ones that you feel you hit the mark with. Consciously try forms that are new for you. You may find that without the expectation to take anything away except experience that form advances. Plan to throw them all in the burn pile when you’re done. Cut some in half to see how you’re progressing.
    The other thing you’ll find is that technique gets better and better when you work on it with no other expectation than to achieve a better cut. It is freeing to not have any other goal than to walk away from the lathe with a skill you didn’t have before.
    Spend a weekend just making shavings and turning as many of the blanks as you can. its amazing where it will lead. You also get a lot of experience cleaning up. Roughing is a great opportunity to work on technique - controlling the bevel, cutting clean, flowing curves, conquering tear-out. Its also a way to work on sharpening skills and play with different grinds.
    When I get new logs, I always core the blanks into three (usually) pieces. the smaller ones often become sacrificial pieces that are meant only to tune up technique before attacking one I’ve been waiting to turn into a keeper. I don’t turn everyday, so a little warn up helps a lot when I want to attack that amazingly figured hunk of wood I’ve saved for just the right day...
    There’s three ways ways to build skills and form...practice, practice, practice.

  2. #17
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Winchester, IN
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    165
    Bill,
    For what it's worth, I feel your pain. I've been turning for about 4 years and spent much of that time working on tool control and proper technique. Only recently have I begun to focus more on form and shape in an effort to create more visually pleasing pieces. If Richard Raffan's book is the Bible, and John Keeton is in the pulpit, I've certainly become a convert. Below is a walnut bowl from 4 years ago and an ash bowl which was recently completed. I still have miles to go, however I think it's evident which piece is the most "pleasing" and it has nothing to do with the wood or my turning skills. Best of luck in your journey!
    Attached Images Attached Images

  3. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    E TN, near Knoxville
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    12,298

    Good books and immutable design axioms

    I also like Raffan's bowl book and a few others. Another one I really like is Woodturning Design, by Mike Darlow.
    https://www.amazon.com/Woodturning-D.../dp/1565231961

    Woodturning Design has 264 pages (and over 540 illustrations) on the process and understanding of design principles as related to aesthetics and function. Unlike many, Darlow includes references!! In my opinion the book is well worth reading, as are three of his other books, Fundamentals of Woodturning, Woodturning Techniques, and Woodturning Methods.

    This is a wonderful book for a thinking person, stretching the mind in ways not imagined. Darlow threads the book with historical examples in stone, pottery, and wood next to photos of "modern" pieces. He never says "make it this way" but shows multiple ways, sometimes numerous variations in form next to each other with comments on subtle differences. Wonderful for training the eye! Perhaps it may not be as appealing to the youtube crowd but this book might well be the basis for a college course in an art school.

    Just one example: in a discussion on page 47 about the "entrenched belief" of the relationship of beauty to proportion, Darlow describes six common reasons for this belief: mathematics (Fibonacci, etc), the existence of ideal proportions, proportions found in nature, pleasure triggered by experiencing certain proportions, the influence of "tastemakers", and proved by scientific experiment. This is immediately followed by a discussion of factors which effectively argue against taking these beliefs as axioms.

    Consider his discussion of the Golden Rectangle, specifically concerning something no one talks about: exactly where on the piece do you measure the proportions? In fact, he demonstrates with a simple illustration that "for most objects there is no logical placement for a proportion-defining rectangle, and that such a rectangle is an artificial, arbitrary, and largely meaningless construct." Without the illustration this may seem harsh to those taught otherwise by those they respect.

    Darlow's point about the "tastemakers" is also something I've heard for years, "the belief that some people have superior design appreciation (taste) and those with inferior taste would design more beautiful objects if they were to follow the recommendations of such tastemakers"

    To me, form as discussed here is art. The first definition of "artist" is one who produces art. I've lived and worked around artists and teachers all my life, in drawing, architecture, sculpture, music, photography, video, and the rest and I've heard many recognized and self-appointed expert opinions about what is better and what is "right". Most of this now seems a bit narrow minded to me. My un-vocalized response is usually "That's what you think." Some of the most memorable and moving art I've experienced has been by those breaking the established "rules". Some of the ugliest things I've seen and heard have been from renown experts (the emperor's new clothes). Some notable examples have been from teachers. I've had designs of several of my own pieces soundly criticized by those "in the know" only to see very similar pieces acclaimed years later when done by a well known turner. (Ha, maybe they saw my pieces and were inspired!)

    I seldom critique for form/art unless asked and when handed a piece I can touch and turn in the light. If solicited I freely give my opinions, especially on technique things that look bad to me but can be improved, like tearout, circular scratches, ripples, and humps. Especially glaring are unintentional inflection points in curves and sloppy finishes. With students I am gentle or brutal depending on their level and ability.

    I should mention I don't create to sell. If someone else likes what I create and like, fine. If not, that's fine too! Those turning to please buyers, art critics, or the woodturning community may have other perspectives.

    JKJ

  4. #19
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Brenham, Tx
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    109
    I think your bowl looks great! Sometimes you just have to go with what the wood will bring. You cut away bad places and then you make a shape with whats left. Write someones name on the bottom of it and give it to them. They'll be thrilled.
    One critique: Your grooves on the bottom aren't cut, they look scraped. That's okay. But their finish doesn't match the "field" wood. Go to Lowes or HD and get a formica chip sample. Next time, scrape your grooves and then rub the formica in the groove. It'll burn the wood black and make it look purposeful.
    RP

  5. #20
    When feeling this kind of frustration is when I'm very glad to have been a decent athlete a long time ago in a previous life. Athletes practice. They practice a lot. They do drills. They repeat drills. And they practice some more. 99% of an athlete's life is spent practicing, not competing. I mentally approach woodworking much the same way.... I work through a process on every piece and I view almost everything as "practice." I've turned a LOT of wood from big hunks to nothing but shavings.

    i think musicians might have a similar mindset.... tons of practice working on scales etc, and THEN a "performance."

    as to your specific bowl in the photo, I might like it a little more if it was a bit thinner. And I think that piece of wood isn't a great color, to my eye. I might suggest some sort of embellishment, like a burn line, or perhaps a bead or cove at the rim just to add some visual interest. Maybe a dyed or painted line? Maybe an inlay? Just something to make it "jazzy." But take my opinions with a huge grain of salt.... I'm not exactly conventional....

    just keep turning!

  6. #21
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    Apr 2016
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    New day....same bowl. More sanding to do....tomorrow.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  7. #22
    Hmmm. I turned some bowls for spending money in high school and college. It was before all the books, before any one pointed out foot, no foot, edged rim, and style of bowl. Being away from turning for 40 years and coming back in the age of youtube, hundreds of turning books with color pictures, new and improved finishes, etc. has been sort of like waking from a coma. Advanced turners take what was once considered flawed pieces of wood and turn out artsy pieces with knows and voids. Pieces of wood my father would have insisted were only firewood. I still take a piece of wood and try to envision the highest and best use. How big and how deep can I go with this one. What shape is just itching to get out? straight sides, convex sides, concave side, perhaps an s curve, My tastes have always dictated that the base should be approx 1/3 of the total diameter or larger for a shallow bowl. My aunt and uncle collected colonial treenware. Original trenchers and burl bowls were scarce because few survived, they had several of each. I modeled what i made after the only examples I had ever seen. Most modern bowls still follow historical proportions to some extent.

  8. #23
    I hate to say it but I liked the original better. But it's your bowl and i'm sure someone will be delighted to have it.

  9. #24
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Wayland, MA
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    3,655
    I'm not enough of an "artist" to critique anyone else's work, but I have found it helpful to look outside the world of woodturning to the potters, they've been thinking about making pleasing shapes for many millennia longer than the turners, but using fundamentally the same method. At the beginning, particularly to the work of ancient Greek and Roman potters. Read about what they did and why it is thought to "work" for the human eye. Learn about golden rectangles and other "pleasing" ratios and then apply them. I've always thought it is a good idea to learn the rules and conventions of traditional design so that you can then break them thoughtfully and with intention-- and probably not too many at once.

    Somewhere I have a book with the silhouettes of several thousand pieces of ancient pottery and a discussion of the design rules embedded in them. I found that quite useful as a source of ideas and for getting a good idea of what pleasing curves look like. Making them come out pleasing from a block of wood is a whole 'nother matter!

  10. #25
    Guys, I'll say this again. With due respect, the OP asked:

    "I look at my bowls, then look at bowls others post and wonder what is missing in mine.
    Looking for brutally honest critique."

    He's not looking for "if it looks good to you it's good." The Turners' Forum is generally warm and supportive, but if a person is asking for constructive criticism, isn't the most generous thing some of you experts can do is give him honest opinions? I am uncertain why so many are not willing to go out on a limb.


  11. #26
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    N. Central Texas
    Posts
    116
    I think the bowl looks "fat", NOT a criticism of the shape, so to make it lighter and more tactile put it back on the lathe and turn off the base to a smooth curve. This makes the bowl scream to be held in both hands. Fill it with spare change and the thickness will be perfect.



    Turn two more bowls the same size. One with the biggest diameter higher up, one with the biggest diamater lower. Which one looks "best" and go from there. One of my favorite bowls is a simple one like yours with the fat part a little lower.

  12. #27
    Bill, the "remake" is not at all pleasing to my eye for a number of reasons. However, I am not sure a critique of this revision is what you want or even need.

    To begin with, I am not sure what your goal is, so it might be best to establish that. If it is simply turning for the pleasure of the activity, and a lot of folks do find that therapeutic, then just enjoy the ride and worry not what others think. But, your original post stated - "Guys, gals, am I making any progress? I seem to continue making the same dumb mistakes on every piece. I'm frustrated....I look at my bowls, then look at bowls others post and wonder what is missing in mine." So, as JKJ and Steve seemed to allude to - is it technique, sanding, finishing that is frustrating for you? Or, is it design/form?


    If it is design/form, then instead of attempting various iterations, I would, again, suggest you do some serious study of classic forms, design principles, and the work of well known and respected artists - both in wood, but more so in pottery. Unless you have an inherent eye for good design, there is only one way to obtain it and that is study and then, and only then, practice. Simply turning one effort after another with no direction is not going to improve your work.

    And, so we are clear, I am not in the camp of "if it looks good to you, then it is good." That approach will guarantee mediocrity. I have never done a piece that I couldn't find something that was not pleasing to me. My best piece will always be my next one, and between now and then, I will contemplate why the last one did not please me and determine how to correct that before doing the next one.

    Left click my name for homepage link.

  13. #28
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Haubstadt (Evansville), Indiana
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    1,294
    Bill, I started out ten years ago doing kit/craft turnings. in the last two years I started doing bowls, hollow form, etc., not kit items. When I first started I learned by doing and acquired bad habits along the way. I joined a turning club two years ago and became a member of this forum. I have learned a lot from these sources. I am still learning and have a way to go. However I just started reading Richard Raffan book "The Art of Turning Bowls" and have learned things in the first few pages. I know I will learn more and better understand shapes of bowls. I really want to improve my understanding of bowl shapes. But I like to try different things. I decided to try piercing as as an embellishment. Lidded boxes is another outlet and learning to make finials. I go back and forth between items allowing me time to contemplate what shape/style I will do next. I don't just turn bowls, I rotate between things. Here are some examples.

    IMG_6931.jpg IMG_6989.jpgIMG_1072.jpg
    When working I had more money than time. In retirement I have more time than money. Love the time, miss the money.

  14. #29
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Harvey, Michigan
    Posts
    20,801
    I agree 100% with John, I am not sure what your goal is. The first bowl form had promise and could have been reworked to enhance the form and finish. The second turning of that same form showed me 2 things; first, the original form was way too thick, and second, the final form does not work (in my opinion) because it does not have a smooth and flowing external curve.

    I also agree with John's suggestion that if you are serious about turning a pleasing bowl, then study classic forms, design principles and respected artists to understand what makes a good form. Once you have determined that, then practice on that one form until you don't even have to think about it to turn it, it just comes naturally. This whole design stuff doesn't come quickly but with time and practice, it does happen.
    Steve

    “You never know what you got til it's gone!”
    Please don’t let that happen!
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  15. #30
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
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    I tried to keep the rule of 3rds when I chose the broadest point on both versions but other than that I really thought my first shape would look better to me than it did, so last night I punted.
    I am struggling to come up with something to send to my older brother who I have not seen in over 25 years. That bowl just wouldn't do. So, here you have the results of an argument with the wife yesterday over a personal matter as well as several other personal problems piling up faster than I can deal with. Perhaps you have been there.
    This version reminds me of what i once read about the composer Tchaikovsky.
    At some point in his career his contemporaries began giving him grief about having never composed a violin concerto. So he went to work and came up with a concerto 40 some minutes long. One of them referred to it as "music that stinks to the ear". I like his violin concerto.
    This thing, though, was an idea that came to me last night. There was plenty of wall thickness to do just about anything. And so......
    Take another look at Prashun's post. My biggest frustration is form. I look at pics posted by seasoned turners and for the life of me cannot come anywhere close to their bowls. I'm not even sure it's the form. There's just a look about them that I can't even put my finger on.
    I suppose I shouldn't be that surprised. I used to keep koi and it takes looking at hundreds...thousands of koi before you begin to develop an eye for a high quality fish. There are no shortcuts. I've had others just getting into koikeeping ask me to look at their koi and tell them if they are "grand champions". It's very hard to tell them the truth when I'm looking down at koi from a pet store that would never have made it past the very first cull by the Japanese breeders.
    I lost my best koi when she jumped through the net I had placed over the pond after first getting her. In just 2 or 3 months of growing season, having spent the winter without food she had perhaps doubled her girth and weight. At 24" and just 2 years old she was going to be big and have nearly perfect body conformation. Netting is vital when you have a new fish in an unfamiliar environment. I found her nearly dried up with many scales gone. I immediately threw her back in and in less than 5 minutes she was back eating like a pig.
    That was one very special koi. I'm not even going to tell you what i paid for her. You'd think i was nuts if you knew. I'll just say it was far more than i could realistically afford. At that time I had developed a fairly good eye for particularly body conformation and she had it big time. I'd wake up in the morning and the first thing I'd do is run out to the pond to check on her (and feed her. She had an enormous appetite). I was excited yet knew in my heart I was not up to providing the level of care she required.
    She developed a fungus where the scales where missing so I netted her and hurried to treat the fungus and get her back in the pond. I looked away from the tub I had placed her in for just a moment and when I looked back at her she was gone. I spent over 2 hours moving her back and forth in the pond water, crying the whole time trying to revive her, but she was gone.
    In the end I had an eye for quality that my bank account could not come close to meeting, so I got out.
    I see now, at least in my case, there are no shortcuts in turning bowls either.
    I want to thank each and every one of you who took the time to respond to this thread.
    I think I've answered the questions I sought from you.

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