I've got turners' block

[Bill Jobe]

Guys, gals, am I making any progress? I seem to continue making the same dumb mistakes on every piece. I'm frustrated.
This bowl got its first coat of PTO today...cut pretty thin.
I made a few quick changes on the bottom side just prior to the tung oil. The inside requires further sanding.
I look at my bowls, then look at bowls others post and wonder what is missing in mine.
Looking for brutally honest crique.

[Richard Casey]

Bill, it looks OK to me. If you are wanting inspiration, go to Google Images, type in woodturned bowls, woodturned platters or woodturned hollow vessels. I find all the ones I like and print them out in A4. When I get a nice blank, I dig through my folder, find a shape to suit the blank, pin it up behind the lathe and try to match it.
Rgds,
Richard.

[daryl moses]

Bill, I like the overall shape of your bowl. It is a Calabash "style" bowl. Calabash bowls can take different shapes and yours is one of them.
I do think it looks a little thick especially around the rim. The thickness is not proportional to the size of it. Also it could use a little more shine to it IMO.
Don't get frustrated, everything i've ever turned I can find fault, there is always room for improvement. That's what makes turning challenging.
BTW, I never take the tennon or remove the recess on the bottom until I am satisfied with the overall shape and finish. That way it can be easily returned to the lathe and make any more changes etc.

[Prashun Patel]

Brutal honesty:

Turn a little thinner. I personally prefer thicker bowls, but my eye wants that rim a little thinner.
I prefer a sharper edge on the rim. It creates a better, defined shadow line.
Try more lift at the base. It will make the bowl less squat (not that I would call this too squat).
Personally, I prefer feet on my bowls. I think a foot lifts and presents the bowl nicely. Contrary to popular belief I don't find that even a small foot interferes with the bowl's stability in use.
These things will make your form a little more delicate and refined.

Sand to a higher grit.

Get Richard Raffan's: The Art of Turned Bowls. Keep it on your coffee table. It's a fantastic source of inspiration still, and I've had mine for a couple years now. This book opened my eyes to foot and rim details.

I empathize with your 'block' syndrome. I too tend to turn the same form over and over...

[John K Jordan]

Guys, gals, am I making any progress? I seem to continue making the same dumb mistakes on every piece. I'm frustrated.
This bowl got its first coat of PTO today...cut pretty thin.
I made a few quick changes on the bottom side just prior to the tung oil. The inside requires further sanding.
I look at my bowls, then look at bowls others post and wonder what is missing in mine.
Looking for brutally honest crique.

Progress? Set some of your earlier things next to the later things for comparison.

Also, it is difficult to evaluate by photo - do you have a local mentor who can hold pieces and look at them closely? I can see some things in these photos but I hesitate to comment much without seeing with my eyes and feeling with my fingers.

Remember that design is different than craftsmanship. If you are talking about things that can be done better such as controlling scratches, tearout, and unintended blurring of detail (such as crisp edges) all that can be easily addressed. If you are concerned about design, I'd suggest not worrying about it. Things like outside shape, rim detail, wall, rim, and bottom thickness, foot and more are all subjective things and I take all such suggestions with "a grain of salt". Everyone has their own opinion, no one is "right" and it's impossible to please everyone. If we try, creativity is stifled, things start looking similar and life is boring. For design inspiration I suggest going to club meetings, galleries, symposiums, and even craft shows and look at lots of things and decide what you like. If you find something you like, copy it. (If you have trouble copying it that's a different issue.) There are zillions of images on the internet - look at the gallery pages of respected woodturners. Books are a great inspiration - I keep a shelf full and occasionally look through them. For example, last week a student started on her first lidded box. We pulled out a few books and looked at some designs - she disliked some and very much liked others. What she liked was not necessarily what I liked!

If you see things you like in others' work maybe take or save photos to study to try to understand just what it is you like.

You mentioned about needing some additional sanding and applying some oil. My experience is sanding is a lot easier before any oil is applied, with the exception of wet sanding with oil (which I do only after the surface is perfect.) To make defects more visible on bare wood I like to wipe the surface with naptha and use a bright, glancing light to see what I need to fix. The naptha dries very quickly. Also, I do very little sanding on bowls - after my best finish cuts I find using scrapers by hand will remove scratches and tool marks far quicker than sandpaper, preserve crisp detail, and let me start with far finer grits.

JKJ

[Tony De Masi]

Well I would start with what you are calling "the same dumb mistakes". As you look at this piece what are you seeing as a repeat mistake? There is nothing wrong with the shape as long as this is the shape that you intended. If it's not and you are labeling the shape as a mistake, then you are having an issue with form. There are many shapes that are pleasing to look at and they all have formula's associated with them to give that pleasing shape.

[Bruce Schoenleber]

Check out galleries featuring ceramic art, or your local library. While woodturners have been poking at spinning wood with pointy objects for hundreds of years, potters have been thrusting their hands into spinning clay for thousands. I doubt that there is a circular form possible which has not been expressed in clay.

I tried a potters wheel once decades ago. Lets just say I was not very successful. Much like watching a master turner, thinking, "that looks easy enough, I can do that", Sure I can .

[Prashun Patel]

Guys, with due respect, Bill is asking for feedback on this form. I think he can learn a lot (as can I) from your personal opinions. Give it to him. He can obviously take it.

[John Keeton]

If you are concerned about design, I'd suggest not worrying about it. Things like outside shape, rim detail, wall, rim, and bottom thickness, foot and more are all subjective things and I take all such suggestions with "a grain of salt". Everyone has their own opinion, no one is "right" and it's impossible to please everyone. If we try, creativity is stifled, things start looking similar and life is boring.

There is nothing wrong with the shape as long as this is the shape that you intended.

Well, someone may as well stir up the hornet's nest and it may as well be me! While I agree with most all of what JKJ and Tony post, I do not agree with these two statements. Two dimensional work - paintings and the like, provide a much greater latitude for "creativity." The art world has proven that folks will buy canvases with paint spattered on them, painted by elephants, monkeys, and apparently combinations not yet thought of. However, with three dimensional work I have found there are three main things that attract folks - good form, color and figured wood. But...it is my belief that form trumps everything. One doesn't need to look very far to find examples of beautiful wood that have been crudely formed into forms that are wholly unattractive. Good form (and, yes, there is such a thing) is immediately pleasing to folks even though they may not know why or even be able to express it. Creation has a certain order to it. For some, including me, it is the result of divine creation by a perfect being - the Almighty God. Others attribute it to happenstance. But, neither group can deny the concept.

The catenary curve, the parabolic curve, the ellipse - all have either a mathematical basis or, in the instance of the catenary curve, are the result of natural forces - gravity in that situation. Fibonacci discovered the existence of the golden sequence - often referred to in discussions about the Fibonacci spiral, the golden mean, etc. While the "discovery" is attributed to him, the source and existence cannot be so attributed. Over the centuries, his principles have been followed in architecture, furniture design, and a myriad of other applications. I would encourage anyone desiring to have a sense of good form to study his concepts.

All this to say that there are "wrong shapes" even if it is what you intended. And, there are some folks that are right - just look at the classic pottery and vase forms from centuries ago. Not coincidentally, they occurred in various parts of the world that had not yet had commercial intercourse. It was because those forms were pleasing to the human eye.

So....I think Bill's form approaches that of a calabash, but could benefit from some of the points already made - thinner wall, a bit of foot or base, and it could also benefit from a smaller base/foot - somewhere close to a third the diameter of the bowl. That and a slight foot will provide some lift to the piece and draw the eye upward, relieving the squatted appearance. The curve at the top where it meets the rim appears to roll in, disrupting the overall curvature, which is actually pretty good.

I do agree with Prashun's suggestion on Raffan's book - the bible when it comes to learning about bowl forms.

OK - now would be the time to take me to task for my comments. But, don't expect me to change my mind!!

[Thomas Heck]

Looks nice to me. You give that to someone as a gift who isn't a wood turner and they'd love it without looking for flaws. Wood turners can be judge mental comparing works to their own. But no artist paints or creates the same. That's what makes every work unique to the artist.

[Steve Schlumpf]

Bill, please let us know the size of the bowl. Photos can be deceptive when it comes to actual sizes. Easier to critique a form when I know dimensions.

You say you keep making the same mistakes. What mistakes? If it is tool control, creating a certain form, sanding, we can help.

[John K Jordan]

Guys, with due respect, Bill is asking for feedback on this form. I think he can learn a lot (as can I) from your personal opinions. Give it to him. He can obviously take it.

I interpreted "I seem to continue making the same dumb mistakes on every piece." as having two possible meanings, mistakes in design or mistakes in execution.

As for form, what I can tell from the pictures is the outside shape looks nice. Easier to tell with the fingers. I personally usually prefer such pieces thinner at the rim but not necessarily the same thickness all the way down - a slightly heavier base can make a piece feel better balanced in the hand, another important aspect of design and impossible to tell from photos. One idea for that: In his books Richard Raffan recommends feeling a piece then cutting it in half to learn what it is that makes it feel that way.

I personally don't like the rounded over edge of the rim, but again, that is my opinion and others have there own. It's an entirely different issue if the rim was intended to be crisp and it was rounded during sanding.

Bill stated "I look at my bowls, then look at bowls others post and wonder what is missing in mine." Part of that might be design and part of it might be a total impression that includes shape and craftsmanship. For example, when I see sanding scratches and tearout on a bottom in a piece it gives me an overall impression that is difficult to separate from the shape, proportions, and form.

Bill, perhaps expand on what you are seeing and feeling. If you are primarily in evaluating the form there is an excellent suggestion repeated by several accomplished wood artists. A good friend brought this up recently in a conversation about developing form:

I am going to do a turning exercise that a friend leaned from a Paul Fennell class. Keep it to small forms and it is OK to use pallet wood if available. Turn a small form for style and pleasing to the eye. Turn one each day and paint them white. On the weekend throw out the ones you do not like. Next week turn a few more, paint them white and continue to throw out the ones you don't like. Eventually a good form will become 2nd nature to you. The reason for painting them either white or black is to take out any visual from some nice grain pattern.

You can spray them with white, grey, or black but black hides the form more. I also recommend turning them from cheap, soft local wood. I like to use cedar here for experimenting with shape because it's so easy to cut and I have a bunch. You can ignore any tearout, scratches, and tool marks.

JKJ

[Reed Gray]

Hmm, looks good to me. Perhaps it needs a 'sold' sign on it....

robo hippy

[Matt Schrum]

I didn't have a lot of time and wasn't able to find your past pictures in a quick search-- but what always works for me is totally changing things up. Get some funky looking wood and try a natural edge bowl, try a bowl with only a small section of natural edge, glue a few boards together and try a two or three tone bowl, give a vase form a shot. Try turning green and let it warp, get a 15" diameter, 3" thick piece and turn a platter or plate. You get the idea.

I've generated some of the prettiest firewood that wasn't worth even taking a picture of, but I've also cranked out some cool looking shallow dishes, oddball shaped bowls, and the occasional "showroom" type piece. Maybe not doing the same form over and over keeps me from really honing my skills in a certain area, but rarely doing the same type of thing twice in a row keeps it interesting.

[Brian Brown]

Bill,

I read and re-read John Keeton's comments, and agree completely. If Raffan's book is the Bible on form, JK is the preacher at the pulpit when it comes to form and putting it all together. I have always liked his critiques of my work, and have learned a lot from him. You have also received other excellent comments from others here.

I have a bit of the same problem you do with feeling like I make the same mistakes over and over again. When I put my old work against my new work, I can see that I do make some of those mistakes again, but I am making progress. Progress or not, it seems that glaciers move faster than my progress. As to a brutal critique, I have already agreed with what others have said about form, (form is the hardest technique for me by far), and there appears to be some minor sanding marks left behind.

Now one other critique. Not on the bowl, but on your feelings of frustration. I don't know how long you have been turning. You have been a member here just under 2 years, so I will make the assumption that you have been turning a little over 2 years (sorry for the assumption). We live in a world of instant gratification. Everything we see, hear, or experience creates a feeling that we should get what we want immediately, thanks to the marketing industry. I teach 2 Dimensional art at a local university. It amazes me how many students feel that what they do has to be perfect on the first try, or second or third. Some quit if they don't get what they want on the first try. Of course there is always some prodigy who will destroy the learning curve right out of the chute; completely annoying the rest of us, but for the other 99+% percent of us, it takes time and practice to get it right, and there is no such thing as perfection. There is always something an artist feels that he/she can improve on. If you ever find yourself feeling like there is nothing more you can improve on, it is time to move on to another pursuit. So, that was a lot of words to say give yourself a break. If you are making the same mistake over, work on just that problem. Get cheap or free wood, and work it over and over. You don,t even have to sand or finish if you are just working on form. Then line up your practice pieces in chronological order so you can see your progress. When you are feeling better about what you are getting, move to the next technique, and warm yourself by the fire as your burn the earlier practice pieces, feeling confident and empowered by what you have conquered.