Business questions regarding Workmans Comp and Hiring

[dirk martin]

Mennonites, German Baptists and Amish are all Anabaptists.

Per above, I certainly wouldn't roll the dice with workers comp insurance, regardless of what religion your employee(s) might be. Not worth it.

Actually, it's very worth it, and Wisconsin's WC laws have very specific provisions for the Amish, clearly allowing their exemption.

[Peter Kelly]

I'd assume then, that those laws probably apply to employers and employees specifically within the Amish community.

[John C Cox]

You as an employer cannot exempt yourself from Liability - religious affiliation notwithstanding... If you are Amish - they won't make you pay for the insurance - but you don't receive coverage from it either.. In that case - an Amish business owner who claimed exemption will have to figure out how to pay for the liability/court fees/medical expenses/lost wages of an injured employee out of his own pocket... Because there is nothing to stop an Amish employee from seeking medical care or lost wages...

As such - I would guess that most Amish businesses actually do choose to pay for the workman's comp insurance - if only to prevent bankrupting the whole business when there is an incident...

It's kinda like the exemption for paying Social Security on Clergy income... You can choose not to pay for social security - but you won't receive any either when you retire.... And so it turns out that many ministers choose to pay for their Social Security because they would really like to get that government pension and medical coverage when they retire....

[dirk martin]

The Amish sect I'm famiiar with, is exempt from WC coverage.
I am not Amish.
I hire the Amish all the time, but right now, they are working as subcontractors, on their own properties.
I'm hoping to, in the future, hire some of them, working in my facility.

I know several Amish that have been injured at work....while working for other Amish as well as other non-Amish.
They seek medical attention at local hospitals when injured, and pay for this care out of their own pockets.....some times for the rest of their life.

They ask me "If I smash my thumb while hammering, or cut off my finger while running the table saw, why would I blame you?

[dirk martin]

I'd assume then, that those laws probably apply to employers and employees specifically within the Amish community.

No, these laws also apply to non-Amish employers, hiring Amish workers.
Specifically:

Religious Sect

Employers may apply for an exemption from the duty to insure workers who belong to a religious sect, such as Amish or Mennonites, whose tenets and teachings oppose accepting benefits of any public or private insurance payments for death, disability, old age or retirement, or that makes payments towards the cost of medical care, including federal social security benefits.
The exemption is not automatic. It applies only if all the following occur:

1. the employer applies for an exemption;
2. the religious sect has a long standing history (25 years is presumed to be long-standing history) of providing its members who become dependent on the sect as a result of work-related injuries, with a standard of living and medical treatment that are reasonable when compared to the general standard of living and medical treatment for members of the religious sect;
3. the worker waives his or her rights to worker's compensation and requests an exemption; and,
4. the religious sect agrees to pay benefits at a reasonable standard of living and medical treatment when compared to the general standards for members of the sect. To qualify for this exemption, employers must apply to the Worker's Compensation Division.

[Brian Elfert]

In Minnesota the owner(s) of a business does not have to be covered by work comp insurance. I owned a business and covered myself. I was the the only person to get hurt while I owned the business.

[dirk martin]

That same rule applies in Wisconsin.

[Mark Bolton]

It may be a bit of an expensive endeavor but I would look into an employment attorney in your area if you really want to be advised on the nuances of the entire employment process and how best to position yourself.

The entire subject of employees is a bitter one for me because we deal with it, and workers comp, and its a complete and total nightmare. I am all for it and glad to have it but the way it is all orchestrated and implemented in most states having employees is a COLOSSAL amount of work for a small business. The paperwork, filling, annual audits, and so on are a financial burden (in time spent) that is basically unrecoverable in most small businesses.

We likely pay a tiny bit higher percentage on comp rates using a pay as you go provider for comp but I would much rather have a slightly higher rate, and management cost, to only pay out weekly what I am required based on my employees paycheck for that week. It makes it very easy to bring new people on, or slow down for a week or two when things are quiet.

I wont even get into the Amish thing. While I know religious exemption wont come to an end any times soon, they operate on a completely unfair, and unrealistic, plane in the business world. I just had an exchange with someone last night over an Amish "contractor" from outside the state trying to steamroll a land owner over access to his "jobsites". If they want in the game, get in the game, and play, and pay, just like the rest of us. If its not a level playing field they shouldnt be allowed in the game.

[Mark Bolton]

medical treatment that are reasonable when compared to the general standard of living and medical treatment for members of the religious sect;

1. the worker waives his or her rights to worker's compensation and requests an exemption; and,

What I dont understand is what would it matter to an employee to request exemption (other than for moral principles). Comp is an employer expense. The employee doesnt pay the comp. I mean it would be a bonus to me if my employees could say "hey, Ill sign on the dotted line that I waive my rights if I cut my arm off". But the employee pays nothing into comp. Just like they pay nothing into unemployment. I can count the times I have had an employee think they can "take a layoff" because they have paid into the system when I repeatedly make it clear to them that they dont pay a single penny into unemployment insurance. I pay that cost as the employer. And you dont "ask" to be laid off because you want some time off, or your having car trouble, or you want to be off for deer season. The work is here, you work. You dont want to work? You quit.

We have a lot of business in our area that lay people off left and right. To the point that they will actually organize their year around when they have worked enough weeks in consecutive calendar quarters to be able to draw for X number of weeks. Its utterly insane.

[Roger Nair]

If I would be in the position as either a general contractor or a property owner, I would require certificates of insurance from all the contractors, purely for the reason the ultimate liability of last resort is the property owner. Prime and sub contractors can be very slippery about coverage and it is prudent to hold their feet to the fire, you must comply or you will not be engaged. The Amish have their own insurance program of Amish aid program, they are very tight with money and put up a front concerning money but within their community they provide some form of mutual aid. So the Amish can dodge all they want, they are not likely to earn my respect as equals in the market place if they want to maintain closed system practices.

[Jerome Stanek]

When I was doing subcontractor work all the companies I worked for required proof of WC and insurance before I could start

[dirk martin]

Mark, I've never heard of an "employment attorney". I've heard of criminal attorney's and real estate attorney's, but never employment attorney's.

Maybe I'll have to do some more digging.

[dirk martin]

I'm not sure what others mean by the Amish working in an unfair plane, in the community.

My brother drives a junker car, and doesn't carry anything but the minimum insurance on it. He lives in a 1 bedroom shack. He powers 95% of his shack with solar and wind. He has no TV, nor microwave. Every time he bids on a project, he wins, cuz he doesn't have all the expenses of most others. Is he being unfair? Others that bid against him, hate seeing him show up to bid. They just walk away. Should he be chastised for being non-materialistic?

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

But does he pay all the taxes, have all the licenses and permits, have the bonding required by the state? Some contractors who skimp in one area skimp in them all. Frankly, he might not win any bids around here. When I got estimates for some trees near buildings and roads to be removed, I called four different out fits. One guy showed up in a twenty year old station wagon with a grimy Mccullough chain saw in the back, he gave me the highest estimate. Another person showed up wearing flip flops and a beer t-shirt and shorts. His truck was new, but I could see that his tools were just thrown in a wooden crate in the back. The one I hired, showed up in a clean late model truck. I could see that his tools were all well organized and also clean (for used tools), he worse a uniform with an embroidered patch with his name and another patch with the name of his company. The first thing he did was to show me his license, insurance certification and worker['s comp. certification. The guy even had a certificate from the Dept of trans about completing a flagging class for contractors. His estimate was the second lowest. There was no reason to even debate which to hire. He job was completed quickly, they cleaned up thoroughly and I had absolutely no complaints.

[Jerome Stanek]

I just had my roof replaced and had 5 people come out and give me estimates. 3 were Amish and 2 were roofing companies that have been around for a long time those 2 were 3 times higher then the Amish but 2 of the Amish furnished me with all the papers WC insurance and were bonded. the only one that didn't was an Amish man that had places for me to see his work and no WC or insurance and he was the highest price of the 3. I went with one that was from Amish country that had a non Amish do the driving, phone, estimating and computer billing. When he came out with his Amish boss they gave me copies of all the paper work. When they came out to do the job they had a driver that dropped the workers off and did a very good job and cleaned up and left the place looking perfect. the only problem that I could see was it was cold the last day and the workers had coats on and then it warmed up and they took them off 2 of the workers left their coats when they left. I did take the coats back to their office and had a great meal down in Mount Hope