I just don't get it

[Patrick Chase]

And the tool flippers, advertisers and the huge racket around them all know it, want you to be just curious enough to spend your money to see if what they all say just might be so. They will be wooing you with the newest gimmick, mystifying you with the numbers and the jargon and most of all belittle you for not having the latest.

Or it could be that different tools/systems work for different tasks and individuals.

I very much doubt that the craftspeople who invented the sokozari (and its Western equivalent) were engaged in a long-running conspiracy to enable evil capitalist 21st-Century ironmongers to take your money. They did so because they saw a problem in their own work, and they came up with a tool to fix it. If you or Frank Klausz can forego it by doing limited scraping with your chisels then more power to you, but that doesn't mean that the dedicated tool is the product of a "racket".

I think that where we're on more solid ground is when we question the need for more modern "innovations". When I see a product that was technologically feasible in 1800 or 1900 but that wasn't made back then, my "gimmick detector" rockets to 11. It's a bit tougher to judge when the product wasn't previously feasible, as in the case of some newer steels for example.

[steven c newman]

Hmmm the old " Dazzle them with Brilliance, or Baffle them with....."

Remember what they said about opinions.....

[ernest dubois]

Or it could be that different tools/systems work for different tasks and individuals.

I very much doubt that the craftspeople who invented the sokozari (and its Western equivalent) were engaged in a long-running conspiracy to enable evil capitalist 21st-Century ironmongers to take your money. They did so because they saw a problem in their own work, and they came up with a tool to fix it. If you or Frank Klausz can forego it by doing limited scraping with your chisels then more power to you, but that doesn't mean that the dedicated tool is the product of a "racket".

I think that where we're on more solid ground is when we question the need for more modern "innovations". When I see a product that was technologically feasible in 1800 or 1900 but that wasn't made back then, my "gimmick detector" rockets to 11. It's a bit tougher to judge when the product wasn't previously feasible, as in the case of some newer steels for example.

I don't know this Klaus figure and also never felt the need to pretty up the bottoms of my mortice as some Japanese must, and which I can respect given that context. The idea of a specialized tool is problematic because of its subjectivity and provides this fertile ground exploitable by evil Capitalists.

Consider this, and please, provide the examples of contradictory evidence, I'm always open to the possibilities, but the last new idea in woodworking was the biscuit joiner introduced by the Swiss sometime late last century. For the rest we have two categories, gimmick or variations/refinements of the very basis concepts long ago established. And then think of this, Veritas tools.

[Stanley Covington]

I don't know this Klaus figure and also never felt the need to pretty up the bottoms of my mortice as some Japanese must, and which I can respect given that context. The idea of a specialized tool is problematic because of its subjectivity and provides this fertile ground exploitable by evil Capitalists.

Consider this, and please, provide the examples of contradictory evidence, I'm always open to the possibilities, but the last new idea in woodworking was the biscuit joiner introduced by the Swiss sometime late last century. For the rest we have two categories, gimmick or variations/refinements of the very basis concepts long ago established. And then think of this, Veritas tools.

Two points:

First, the Japanese sokozarai is a not a gimmick but a tool designed to accomplish a specific task. As you may know, the longer the tenon in a mortise & tenon joint, the more glue area, the more friction, and the more resistance to racking (to a point) is provided. Ergo, the through-tenon. But in most countries, including Japan, until recently, exposed end-grain was considered a sign of unrefined craftsmanship, and through-tenons were seen as country-bumpkin work. If we look at a door frame therefore, the optimal and elegant mortise & tenon joint has a mortise that is just shy of penetrating all the way through the stile, with only a very thin layer of wood remaining in the bottom. Indeed, light should come through. To achieve this, the craftsman needs a tool to actually shave the bottom of the mortise to a uniform depth/thickness. That tool is called the sokozarai. Even if you scrape away with your mortise or bench chisel, you will not be able to accomplish this detail without a sokozarai, or a very very very very tiny router plane. But there is no equivalent in the Western tradition that I am aware of, although I know timber framers that improvise a similar tool for cleaning mortises.


Another point:

Let us examine the router plane. The origin of this tool is the "Old Hag's Tooth." This is an ancient and venerable tool. But there is no equivalent in Japan, where they see it as a strange tool of little practical use.

The point is that traditions exist for a reason, and a wise man will try to figure out those reasons before criticizing. We would not want to create fertile ground to be exploited by bloody-handed socialists.

[Rob Luter]

I read all the things about "Don't scrape the bottom of mortises with your chisels", "You need 35* bevels on chisels" and so on. Yet we take a plane iron with a 25* bevel and shove it with both legs into wood, knots, edge grain, and some very hard wood at a 45* angle and expect it to keep performing. I do get the thing about more brittle steels chipping if you pry with them, that goes for screwdrivers with hard tips too. I also understand there may be issues if you use a 2 lb. hammer like Thor in a fight. But just using your chisel with normal hits with a mallet in a straight manner or scrapping a little is going to ruin the edge.
Tell me what I'm missing here.
Jim

I'm late to chime in, but my plane irons, bench chisels, and mortise chisels all have different edge geometry to foster durability in their intended applications. I can pry and scrape with my mortise chisels because the cutting angle is steeper than on my bench chisels. This said, I can't pare with them. I use my bench chisels with a shallower cut angle. I also don't whack them with Thor's hammer. I'd also never consider blowing through knots with a smoothing plane. I'd use another tool with a more durable edge. I have no "one size fits all" expectations with respect to edge prep.

[James Pallas]

Everyone is making good points here. Warren's about tool abuse, Ernest's about tools not needed, and Stanley's about why a tool is needed. I never knew that in Japanese work that it is expected that the bottom of a mortise be clean or the reason why. I think I understand Warren's points about it's may not be the tool but the technique. I don't think I have a need at this point in my work to carefully clean the bottom of a mortise but I now know the how and the why. I've never been one to buy gimmick tools but they are all over the place. I look at those tools like diet fads, the answer to that problem is well known. Tool abuse is a rampant thing see it done a lot. If you find that a tool is not working there must be a reason, too small, too big, not sharp, not being used as intended and the rest of a long list. Thanks for all the comments. I feel more confident now that in fact I do "get it".
Jim

[Robert Engel]

Tool abuse is a rampant thing see it done a lot.
Jim

Torturing a tool ought to lead us to a question "is there another way?" Yes, there's a better way to address a knot.

Specific to the mortise question you brought up, I would ask "Tellm me why does the bottom of a mortise need to be flat?".

In a more broader sense, in general, how essential is an effort when no one will see it and it doesn't affect integrity of joint?

I sometimes find myself in the vortex of self satisfaction over "doing it right" when in the final analysis, my efforts are inconsequential to the piece.

(BTW if you just have to have the mortise bottom flat, a sharpened paint can opener works fairly well.)

[Stanley Covington]

Torturing a tool ought to lead us to a question "is there another way?" Yes, there's a better way to address a knot.

Specific to the mortise question you brought up, I would ask "Tellm me why does the bottom of a mortise need to be flat?".

In a more broader sense, in general, how essential is an effort when no one will see it and it doesn't affect integrity of joint?

I sometimes find myself in the vortex of self satisfaction over "doing it right" when in the final analysis, my efforts are inconsequential to the piece.

(BTW if you just have to have the mortise bottom flat, a sharpened paint can opener works fairly well.)

I suspect your question was mocking, but since you asked it, I will answer it for the benefit of all following this thread. It is not an easy point to misunderstand

Unlike furniture or interior finishes, doors, windows, and shoji are moved by hand, often violently, and are subject to high loading from alternating directions. They are abused. Unless they are replaced, burned, eaten by bugs, or rot, eventually, they all fail, and the cause of that failure is clearly visible to the end user. If the reason for that failure is a sloppy mortise and tenon joint, do you doubt the consumer will complain to the craftsman that made it? Might that customer's dissatisfaction turn into word-of-mouth that will harm the craftsman's reputation? In Japan, you can bet your sweet bippy it will.

In the Japanese tradition, doors, windows and shoji are handled daily by small women with particular sensibilities. The doors, windows and shoji must therefore be lightweight and elegant in appearance, not heavy and clunky like castle joinery (depending on the architectural style, of course). The sensibilities are different. Even the sound a shoji makes is noticed by and important to these picky women. Believe me, the last thing you want is for a Japanese woman to start criticizing your work.

I am constantly doing factory inspections of joinery, furniture, millwork, stone, floor finishes, light fixtures, curtainwall, sash, doors, etc. for the projects I am in charge of. Often, Japanese women with the Client, architect, interior designer, or my staff attend with me (or on my behalf). It is truly scary how nit-picky these women are. I almost always have to make them backdown on their complaints during these inspections or nothing would ever get delivered to the jobsite on time. Japanese craftsmen, manufacturers and suppliers are used to this, indeed, expect it.

Over the life of a wooden sliding door, window, or shoji, the demands on their mortise and tenon joints are high. The physics pertaining to doors, windows, shoji, and other joinery include bending moments, shear forces, friction, withdrawal forces, force couples, crushing forces. These are not imaginary.

If a craftsman is unable or unwilling to make a clean flat bottom, then the tenon that will reside in that mortise must be made correspondingly shorter, and joint integrity may indeed be compromised to some degree. Simple physics.

You may not see the importance of this detail, but a lot of craftsmen over many centuries have made a living performing this hidden detail many times a day. They are/were not hobbyists. Their motivation is/was not just self-satisfaction, but quality.

In your job, your fellow workers may not mock you for neglecting to make your mortise bottoms clean, thin and uniform. Your customers may not demand this kind of quality, or examine failed joints with jaundiced eye, and complain with a serrated steel tongue. Your boss may not fire you if you neglect to work to these standards. But for some craftsmen, it is/was an essential part of their job. For essential jobs, specialist tools are often developed to increase efficiency and accuracy.

If you don't plan to work to these standards, and for these kind of Clients, then a sokozarai is not an essential tool for you.

[James Pallas]

Stanley, please keep going. Is there any concern for wood shrinkage with the tenon being full length of the mortise? I have on rare occasions seen tenons punch thru or separate at the shoulder is why I ask. Is the same standard with thin bottoms used in timber framing?
Jim

[Warren Mickley]

I have to agree with Stanley on the importance of tenon length. Short tenons are liable to break out the cheeks of the mortise or, if pinned, to split out between the pin and the end of the tenon.

In my area many customers expect a through tenon in frame construction. This is partly because through tenons are used in the finest 18th century Philadelphia furniture. However, it is also because seeing the end of the tenon is their assurance that the craftsman did not use cheapo tenons that only go halfway through the stile, or worse.

[steven c newman]

They do make a chisel for cleaning out the bottom of mortises here.....called a lock mortise chisel. Designed for cleaning up the bottoms of mortises.

Then again, there are a few "Homemade" versions out there...
IMG_3551 (640x480).jpg
No..this isn't a screwdriver....
IMG_3552 (640x480).jpg
It started life as an adjuster for drum brakes on a car. Was reground into a chisel shape, a tang was ground for the handle....The curve has a bevel down profile..
IMG_3554 (640x480).jpg
1/4" wide, can be struck with a mallet, or just use you hand. Works nicely in the mortises I make.
YMMV...

[Edwin Santos]

I don't know this Klaus figure and also never felt the need to pretty up the bottoms of my mortice as some Japanese must, and which I can respect given that context. The idea of a specialized tool is problematic because of its subjectivity and provides this fertile ground exploitable by evil Capitalists.

Torturing a tool ought to lead us to a question "is there another way?" Yes, there's a better way to address a knot.

Specific to the mortise question you brought up, I would ask "Tellm me why does the bottom of a mortise need to be flat?".

In a more broader sense, in general, how essential is an effort when no one will see it and it doesn't affect integrity of joint?

I sometimes find myself in the vortex of self satisfaction over "doing it right" when in the final analysis, my efforts are inconsequential to the piece.

(BTW if you just have to have the mortise bottom flat, a sharpened paint can opener works fairly well.)

In your job, your fellow workers may not mock you for neglecting to make your mortise bottoms clean, thin and uniform. Your customers may not demand this kind of quality, or examine failed joints with jaundiced eye, and complain with a serrated steel tongue. Your boss may not fire you if you neglect to work to these standards. But for some craftsmen, it is/was an essential part of their job. For essential jobs, specialist tools are often developed to increase efficiency and accuracy.

If you don't plan to work to these standards, and for these kind of Clients, then a sokozarai is not an essential tool for you.

Hi,
Interesting discussion. Sometimes context can make understandable what otherwise might seem absurd. I've had some experience with Mr. Klausz, having taken two separate week long classes with him. In one he demonstrated the hand cut mortise behind glass right in front of us. He also brought a "hag's tooth" that he said was older than his own grandmother would be, and he demonstrated using it to clean out a hand cut dado (much shallower than the mortise obviously).

Here's a little bit of his story - he was apprenticed as a young teenager in the old world European tradition which involved conditions that some today might call abusive. For example, ignoring the destruction and then rebuilding of self-esteem at the hands of the shop master, and the penance of being the low man in the shop hierarchy, he worked 16 hour days that ended with sleeping for the night in a cot in the unheated workshop, only to wake up the next morning and do it again. The emphasis in the shop was aimed at some balancing point between European craftsmanship standards and practical trade production, not a whole lot of philosophy. Your craftsmanship was part of your trade and your trade was how you put food on the table. Most importantly every hand tool technique he demonstrated was one he had done thousands of times (maybe tens of thousands of times?), so it didn't take long for all of us in the class, regardless of experience, to defer our own opinions to Frank's way. You quickly learned not to contradict what Frank was saying based on what you read in some blog, that's for sure.

Switching continents, I've had the good fortune to spend some time in Japan and develop a fascination and respect for all things Japanese. While I would defer to Mr. Covington any day of the week on the subject, I picked up on the introduction of a cultural philosophy in craftsmanship that is not present in quite the same way in Frank's old world European tradition. Implicit in this cultural philosophy are concepts such as personal self-improvement, advancement along a never ending path striving for perfection, beauty exists not only where you can see it but also where you cannot see it (and where only the craftsman knows it). It's difficult to articulate some of these ideas, especially considering their roots come out of Asian thinking which is not as strictly linear and literal like our thinking in the West. However - and this is important - none of these ideas exist at the expense of the practical and functional, including the efficiency and economy of the tradesman. The Japanese craftsman is trying to maintain his commitment to certain principles, but put food on the table too.

I share this because it might speak to why a craftsman in Japan would concern himself with the bottom of a mortise, even to the point of adopting a tool for a purpose that seems questionable to another. It's for a practical, functional joint strength reason but also a personal philosophical reason. Coincidentally or not, I'm told the Japanese tradition of craft apprenticeship may not be that different than what Frank described, although I've never heard a Japanese person yell quite like he did (and that was to a group of grown adults who were paying money to take his class).

Please excuse the rambling, and not to suggest that anyone's opinion in this thread has been right or wrong per se. I thought some additional context and perspective might explain what might otherwise look like conflicting ideas (and maybe a few similarities also).

I'll admit a personal bias insofar as I can appreciate the old world European work that Frank showcased all day long, but there is a manner in which the intangible Japanese philosophies I've tried to describe can actually present themselves in the finished work in a way that is quite beautiful. It's as though the craftsman's person is revealed to you in some way even though he/she is nowhere to be found.

Edwin,

[ernest dubois]

I hope nobody it assuming that tenons not scraped or cut with this bottom chisel of the Japanese are not accurate. It's not a problem chopping a flat bottom mortice in the conventional way. It's only logical that a tenon should have maximal length to make a stronger joint. This is part of the basic knowledge that goes into joint selection . Where the joint like that is required the standard I know is leaving 5 mm thickness remaining, inclusive of 2 mm free space, where a through tenon is excluded. I can accept that Japanese may have even a smaller tolerance in this instance since Japanese joinery is much more involved and requires far greater skill.

The bottom cutting chisel is a gimmick but not in and of itself. For the shoji maker of Japan working in the context Stan has laid out certainly not but in a different context where the rational is not only not understood, maybe even incomprehensible and certainly not readily accessible - how many owners of these chisels in the West understand the Japanese attitude towards exposed end grain I wonder - it becomes an object exotic and mysterious and so, maybe something that can compensate for missing skill.

[Warren Mickley]

I laughed when I read Klausz's method for hand mortising in a 1979 Fine Woodworking article. Over the next decade he wrote articles and made videos about making mortises by machine. I assumed that machine mortising was his standard method.

About five years ago I saw a new video of Frank using a mortise chisel. In this video his was using a technique similar to what I have done for forty years, not what was in his 1979 article. I guess here in America even an old world cabinetmaker can learn how to do hand work.

[Mike Allen1010]

Edwin thanks for your very insightful comments regarding what customers value from the Japanese and traditional European perspective and how that might differ with contemporary western consumers. IMHO, very helpful in understanding how those consumer preferences influenced woodworking techniques in different cultures.