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Thread: Why saw the waste in dovetails vs chiselling it?

  1. #16
    Join Date
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    9,469
    Fred, the issue of sawing waste becomes clearer when through dovetailing carcases in hardwood. A drawer with half blind dovetails, especially where the secondary wood is soft, is not the same deal.

    There are two factors to sawing: the first is that it is quicker to saw away the waste on a (through) pin board. This may also be the case with the tail board, depending on how wide the tails are sawn. The tiny tails on my drawers are easy to chop out. Even so I do not do so. This is where the second reason comes in: there is less chance of spelching/breaking out the baseline if you saw and leave a slither of wood to either pare or chop away.



    http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furnitu...ovetails3.html

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  2. #17
    Thanks everyone!

    I currently chop the waste almost exactly the way Mike shows it above. Thanks Mike - great tutorial and glad to know my approach is consistent with someone who actually teaches this stuff like you do.

    This afternoon, I found a case where chopping the waste would not work for me - there was less than 1/8" between the wide end of my tails. Because I couldn't easily chop the waste, I reduced the number of tails to widen that gap. So I accidentally convinced myself that I do I want to be able to saw the waste occasionally.

    So I'll order a KC fretsaw tonight if I can make up my mind on which one to buy. (The 5" Mark IV swivels 360 but is heavier than the 5" Mark III most people have. But the Mk III doesn't do 360.)

    Thanks again everyone. I appreciate your thoughts and advice.

    Fred
    "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

    “If you want to know what a man's like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals.”

  3. #18
    Join Date
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    I also chop my dovetails as Mike does it. I learned to make dovetails at Homestead Heritage in Waco Texas about 20 years ago.

  4. #19
    Like many, which way I approach dovetail waste depends and I have and still use both coping saws and fret saws (including the KC fret) but the best saw and the one I will use 90% of the time is a TFWW 12" bow saw. It is as fast or faster than a coping saw and can do everything a fret saw does. I find it is the perfect saw for removing dovetail waste.

    ken

  5. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Chet R Parks View Post
    Mike, thanks for the information, I always saw out the waste but never thought of removing the waste as you show in the second post because the waste is supported it doesn't brake out, That's helpful to know. Thanks again.
    Chet
    It's nice to have an alternate technique when you realize you just broke your last saw blade

    Mike
    Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.

  6. #21
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    New England
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    First off, I love threads like these and follow them closely although I rarely participate. My skill level falls in the lower half of the main participants here.

    That said, is the difference between paring and chopping the lack of a mallet? What about gentle tapping? What if you use the heel of your hand as the mallet? I'm sorry, but I'm serious.

    Perhaps paring is with the grain and chopping is across the grain? But I do think it is possible to pare across the grain. I think the difference between paring and chopping might be the amount being removed.

    As I said, I would love to hear what the more experienced woodworkers than me have to say about this.

  7. #22
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
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    +1

    I used to chisel out the waste, but after seeing Rob Cosman's video tried sawing. The results were quicker, cleaner, and tearout was reduced to zero. What's not to like?

  8. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Zellers View Post
    First off, I love threads like these and follow them closely although I rarely participate. My skill level falls in the lower half of the main participants here.

    That said, is the difference between paring and chopping the lack of a mallet? What about gentle tapping? What if you use the heel of your hand as the mallet? I'm sorry, but I'm serious.

    Perhaps paring is with the grain and chopping is across the grain? But I do think it is possible to pare across the grain. I think the difference between paring and chopping might be the amount being removed.

    As I said, I would love to hear what the more experienced woodworkers than me have to say about this.
    I will let others share their preferences with you. Here is mine.

    Whenever I can, I chop; when chopping is not the best approach, I pare. Even with a sharp edge, paring in general requires more efforts, but I like the added control when you pare. For example, I tend to pare when I chisel a knife wall, although now and then I also tap a (wide) chisel for the same job. I have not really analyzed why I pare in one case and chop in another; the choice just comes from experience. Sometimes because of mood perhaps. I don't know about you, but mood sometimes is a factor in my choice of tools or methods. I can work several days in a row all hand tools, or a whole week with mostly power tools, or my shop could stay quiet for a few weeks as if vacated. My neighbors could never find a fixed work pattern for my shop.

    In the case of dovetails, after the sawing of waste, they are cut mostly with chopping, except where fine tuning is needed and paring is used. One of the times I use the heel of my hand is when I hand tap a chisel to start a dado cut after the dado walls are sawn. I don't think I've used my hand as a mallet in any of my dovetail work, through or half-blind.

    So in a nutshell, chopping is used unless paring is a better approach (sorry for being a bit too generalized).

    If you aren't sure which works best, why not use both methods for the same or similar joint and see what works better for you.

    Simon
    Last edited by Simon MacGowen; 03-11-2018 at 11:30 PM.

  9. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Zellers View Post
    First off, I love threads like these and follow them closely although I rarely participate. My skill level falls in the lower half of the main participants here.

    That said, is the difference between paring and chopping the lack of a mallet? What about gentle tapping? What if you use the heel of your hand as the mallet? I'm sorry, but I'm serious.

    Perhaps paring is with the grain and chopping is across the grain? But I do think it is possible to pare across the grain. I think the difference between paring and chopping might be the amount being removed.

    As I said, I would love to hear what the more experienced woodworkers than me have to say about this.
    I don't know if there's a dictionary answer to your question, but for me, chopping is hitting the chisel with a mallet. Paring is pushing with your hand. A paring chisel will normally be sharpened at a fairly low angle, maybe 25 degrees or even 20 degrees. If you hit a paring chisel (with that low a bevel angle), the edge would probably crumble. To me, you can pare cross grain or with the grain.

    Mike
    Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.

  10. #25
    Good stuff, Mike. Thanks for sharing; got to try that in my next dovetail job.

    All these years, I have been using Ian Kirby's method, which is slightly different from yours although the principle is the same, to prevent the breakout on the wall. Again, there are many ways to skin a cat.

    Simon

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Henderson View Post
    A paring chisel will normally be sharpened at a fairly low angle, maybe 25 degrees or even 20 degrees. If you hit a paring chisel (with that low a bevel angle), the edge would probably crumble. Mike
    Ah- I like this. I do know that some advocate paring chisels be ground to low angles and I know that Rob Cosman advocates going as low as 17º at least for softwoods. So you may have answered my question Mike. Perhaps paring vs chopping has more to do with the angle of the grind given your point of the durability of the edge. The harshness of striking with a mallet vs the gentle push of the hand dictates the grind which defines the action of chopping vs paring.

  12. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Simon MacGowen View Post
    Good stuff, Mike. Thanks for sharing; got to try that in my next dovetail job.

    All these years, I have been using Ian Kirby's method, which is slightly different from yours although the principle is the same, to prevent the breakout on the wall. Again, there are many ways to skin a cat.

    Simon
    I'm always looking for new ways, What's Ian Kirby's method?

    Mike
    Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.

  13. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Henderson View Post
    I'm always looking for new ways, What's Ian Kirby's method?

    Mike
    Please give me some time to dig up his writing...it should be somewhere in one of the cabinets. Tomorrow.

    Simon

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Henderson View Post
    I'm always looking for new ways, What's Ian Kirby's method?

    Mike
    he wrote an entire book on it. The complete dovetail: handmade furniture’s signature joint

  15. #30
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
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    twomiles from the "peak of Ohio
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    Hands have too much trouble using a coping/fret saw...so..I chop.

    I did pick up a few tips from Sellers. I also only flip the boards over once.

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