CAMaster Stinger 1 or ShopSabre 23

[Mark Bolton]

Mark, it's good to hear that you've had a good experience with ShopSabre and I thank you for providing it. I personally wasn't aware of them until the OP asked earlier and I took a few minutes to browse their site to see if I could help him out.

Well thats sad to hear Jim, because there are other options out there. I understand that a few (or more) here may be somewhat biased but as you well know, this gray area between the hobby and the commercial world is a fickle spot in which I would often times not want to be a vendor.

For instance, I just spoke with a shop (metal not wood) that took delivery of a DMG MORI that probably cost 300K and had a couple dents in the covers and scratches from shipping and they dont care. The guts is what matters and the machine will run in the profit margin for years. Its a wonder we in the low level world even get a return phone call with dial calipers and feeler guages on consumer level table saw tables.

Our machine is cutting at .001 two years after we have run the guts out of it. AND likley made a few mistakes that shoiuld have taken it out of tolerance but are to no issue.

There is a gross bias here. And when I say gross bias,.. I mean GROSS bias. Its flagrant.

Its not to say the alternative is not a great option, but the bias is really, really, over the top.

Ready for the delete lol.

[todd werner]

Hi Mark,

I think one or two bad experiences spread on the web can bias an entire board, so companies need to be very careful not to let that happen. ShopSabre, at least in my minimal experience, hard sells their product as the ultimate, which always rubs people who do their own research the wrong way. As an example, because they know I'm comparing their machine to CAMaster's, someone there said they heard that CAMaster is moving to all ball screws on their top of the line machines, implying that clearly the SS-23 is better since it uses ball screws not rack and pinion.
It's also bad to copy someone else's design and then say something like, "they're always chasing us on innovation and quality". I can look and see who copied who based on when a machine was introduced. The web makes it easy to figure stuff like that out, so it's bad practice now days.

The people there do seem very nice, but it feels like someone is trying to sell me a timeshare, and I don't get that from CAMaster.

None of what I just wrote means the CAMaster is better than the ShopSabre or that the Shopsabre is better than the CAMaster. It just means I don't like their sales style, but I'll choose based on the machines.

So I'm still trying to figure out which is the better machine for me. Both are good, and nobody here has ever said a specific component on one or the other is inferior or superior. Someone did imply the ShopSabre rails are Chinese and cheap, but it's so off-hand, I don't know how to take that. It's not like anyone said: ShopSabre uses 25mm Chinese rails and CAMaster uses 15mm rails by _______ which are better. I wish someone would be that clear.

I still don't know which uses a better stepper motor, or higher quality rails or controllers or such. Maybe nobody here does either.

But I'd still like to hear opinions on whether the fixed Z touch plate is better than the Z-touch switch. Does a fixed plate it ever break small bits because there's no give to it?

Or will the gantry flex more if I order it with the 7" or clearance?

Both use Mitsubishi VFDs and the same spindles. Both look really solid and well engineered. As of now I'd be deciding between more surface area vs more height and a pneumatic counter balance (since that sounds like a plus, not a minus as I initially thought).

[James Biddle]

I've now ran both company's (their bigger offering) machines and you really can't go wrong with either one. Camaster and Shopsabre could be fraternal twins. Both are American made, run WinCNC, have a one-piece welded frame, have HSD spindle options, etc. They carry much of their larger machine design and technology down into the smaller machines. They both stack up well against bolt-together hobby frame machines and questionable quality Asian imports.

[Jim Becker]

Todd, one thing on the gantry extension...pay attention to the note that getting the extension does not increase the Z-axis travel. My take on that is that the higher gantry is more for "eyesight" since it doesn't alter the cutting capabilities on the Z-axis. Here's the text from the Stinger Options Document:

GantryLift (AllStingers)
This option gives you 2” more of work room under the Gantry. With this option, the Stinger I work room is 7” insteadof 5” and the Stinger II & III is 8” instead of 6”. This option DOES NOT increase the Z travel of the machine. The Z axistravel on the Stinger I is 9” with 5” below the gantry, on the Stinger II and III, it is 11” with 6” below the gantry.

[Bruce Page]

Todd, I have the Stinger 1, SR23. I bought it new 5 years ago and haven’t had a single problem with it. I am a retired hobbyist so I don’t push it hard. I’ve only needed to contact customer service once and the problem turned out to be operator error. I have no bias toward ShopSabre, I don’t think they were selling the ShopSabre 23 when I was doing my homework.
As mentioned, the counter balance only needs to be pressurized and does not “use” air. There is a pressure regulator mounted on the machine, you only need to run air to it, mine is factory set at 36psi for the 1.7kw spindle.
The Z touch plate and the Z set switch do basically the same thing but for different reasons. The touch plate works well for setting a single cutter relative to your work piece, table top, etc. The set switch, or FTC as Camaster calls it is used when you have multiple cutters used in one piece, e.g., end mills, ball mills, v-bits. The machine will prompt you when it’s time to change a cutter, measure the Z position of the new cutter and go back to work. It is a very cool feature over just a touch plate. I have never broken even very delicate bits using either method, however I do slow down the Z ipm drop rate with delicate bits.

[todd werner]

Todd, one thing on the gantry extension...pay attention to the note that getting the extension does not increase the Z-axis travel. My take on that is that the higher gantry is more for "eyesight" since it doesn't alter the cutting capabilities on the Z-axis. Here's the text from the Stinger Options Document:

Hi Jim,

That's an interesting point. The advantage of the taller gantry might be the ability to build jigs or parts holders without losing clearance. For example, if I want to use the CNC to shape a Laskin Bevel on an acoustic guitar, I could make a body mold/clamp that mounts to the deck, and the guitar sides would be supported everywhere except where I wanted it to carve the bevel.

The disadvantage might be that I couldn't have the machine cut T-track slots in the deck, because the spindle could only get to within 2 inches of the MDF.

So what do you think? Does 5" of travel below a 7" tall gantry mean a bit would have to stick out at least 2 inches just to touch the deck? If so, does everyone with gantry lift option use a super thick spoil board?

Hmmm, if you put on the thicker spoil board, can you still use the rapid tool change touch plate mounted to the side, or will spindle body hit the spoil board before a short bit would reach that Z touch plate. I suspect the tool length touch pad is adjustable in height, but you may be right. There my not be an advantage to the gantry lift if I can keep my jigs fairly close to the deck on a standard height gantry Camaster or Shopsabre.

[todd werner]

Hi Bruce,
I saw that feature on Javi's Wood Shop video on YouTube and it looks great. The ShopSabre does the same thing, but there's a switch mounted to the top of the electrical box at the foot of the machine. So it presses that switch down to measure the tool length after each bit change.
I assume they're equally accurate. The plate seemed like it might break a tiny bit, the switch seemed like it might break, but I'd call them a wash.
What the ShopSabre doesn't include is a touch plate to set your table height, it would be almost $400 to add that. No laser on the ShopSabre either.

Does the gantry on the Camaster hang from the rails under the steel tubing? The ShopSabre rails are on the sides like the ones on the Stinger 2's. The Stinger 1 design seems more protected from dust and metal shavings, but possibly not as strong a design. Strong enough I'm sure, but I'm wondering why they designed it that way. Any ideas?

[Brad Shipton]

Time to take a drive so you can touch one and talk to the users. There is a map on the camheads forum of where they are, and I am sure SS can provide you some names too. You might even think about the Shopbot.

I would bet the Cammaster linear rails are Hiwin just like SS and those are made in Taiwan. I know for certain that is what are on mine, because I tracked down the part numbers and figured it out. The industrial machines use brands like Rexroth, Thomson, SKF, FAG and other high end names. Those are about double the cost, so that is why you do not see them on entry level machines. Are those any better? Depends on your goals. To get your accuracy to around 0.015" - 0.025" is not all that difficult, but to get less than that you have to be a bit more meticulous about details.

Both Cammaster and SS are using reputable steppers and unless you know the gearing, you will not be able to figure out if either can achieve the speeds stated. I suspect the SS is using a Sanyo Sanmotion stepper that is one or two sizes smaller than those on my 4x8 SS machine. For this aspect of the machine you will need to get comfortable with what the manuf is telling you or rely upon the experience of others using these machines.

I like the Z axis balance on my machine and it does not use much air. I mounted a mister assembly to my z axis for cutting aluminum and some DC parts. That adds a bit of weight, but I was able to counter that easily by adjusting the air pressure.

I have a touch off pad for setting the Z axis height, and one for the tool changer. These are not incredibly accurate, but they work for many. You need to look at how these work. The ones on mine have three electrical contacts inside, and when the electrical current is broken that is the reference height. I use a Techniks manual gauge because I am too fussy. It does not take that much time once you are used to it. There is a discussion of the Tormach SPU-40 probe accuracy online. That is what SS is using now for their Z axis touch off. I have one hanging on my wall I will sell.

This will boil down to features, word of mouth, and your impression of the machines from talking to the salespeople.

[Bruce Page]

Does the gantry on the Camaster hang from the rails under the steel tubing? The ShopSabre rails are on the sides like the ones on the Stinger 2's. The Stinger 1 design seems more protected from dust and metal shavings, but possibly not as strong a design. Strong enough I'm sure, but I'm wondering why they designed it that way. Any ideas?

The rails are mounted to the bottom of the tubing on the Stinger. I don't see that as a problem but I am not a machine designer. It is plenty stout.

[Gary Campbell]

Todd...

I tried my best to avoid this thread. You did PM me and since I have not owned either of the machines in question, I did not comment. When he asked about a previous negative comment, I would simply stand by those comments. I don't know if you have figured it out yet, but we (other CNC users) cannot give you the answers that you request. That would involve us making a decision for you. Think about it.... it's the freakin internet!

If you want to know my opinion, read the thread I wrote on the CAMheads forum in the FAQ section titled "Buying a CNC? Do your homework!"

In my opinion, most of the assumptions you make are not the ones that I would make. Also, following the lead set by most pre purchase CNC wannabees, the vast majority of things that concern you now, will not be the things that concern you once you gain experience. Many of your questions (to me) are similar to " are brand A apples better than brand B oranges?" In other posts you answer most of your own questions with other questions. That said there are few questions that I can answer.

An air counterbalance allows a faster response from the Z axis be "counterbalancing" the weight of the Z assembly. Noticeably faster 3D cutting, if you do that sort of cutting and allows faster retracts without loosing steps. The Z axis still has to fight mass and inertia, but not gravity.

Steel vs aluminum: Equally sized steel is cheaper and stronger. Steel costs more to machine than aluminum, virtually eliminating any savings. So the real questions are: Are they equal sized? Do they have similar machining? Are the surfaces for the rails machined and set to datums? Do you actually think either of these companies would produce a gantry that visually deflects and still be in business?

Gantry height: All things being equal increasing the gantry height will always increase deflection. That deflection will seldom be in the gantry beam, it will usually be in the side plates. That's why stronger gussets are usually provided. In most cases the collet nut will travel to the factory table, as there is a couple inches of unused travel on the shorter heights .

Spring loaded tool measure switches are always better than the flat plate conductive type.

If you have questions about the control components find an online picture or have your sales guy provide one. You will want to know if they are using good products and methods.

It does not matter if they mount the rails on the top of the frame, bottom or side. What matters is how rigid are the connections, are they precision machined and how strong are the components.

In reality, most of us do not know the answers to most of your questions, as they don't matter much. Take linear bearing blocks for example. The maintenance you perform will have a much greater effect on their service life than the brand. Only a companies salesperson will tell you that brand A is better than B. In most cases we cant. Like Mark says, most here are biased towards the brand they purchased, just like he is.

Like most before you, you are suffering from "paralysis from analysis" Find a machine you like from a company you can trust, and order a machine!

[todd werner]

Hi Brad,
The Tormach probe seems like an expensive way to do things when a fixed conductive plate would work, but good to know what it is. I can't tell if you think one is better than the other from your post. You seem to say both are not accurate enough for your purposes.

I was thinking I would get a Shars or APM tool setting gauge if I get tired of paper and feeler gauges.
I found information on the rails in a brochure. You are right. ShopSabre uses Hiwin rails and bearings. So other than the size, the two are a match. Seems like they're a match on most things. Can I ask what CNC you have?

Bruce,
I don't see it as a problem either. I am a little curious as to why they did it that way and thought you might have an idea. Maybe so the gantry uprights can be closer to the frame. Just curious about that, not thinking it's a problem.

Editing, because I had this open when I got a phone call, and didn't see Gary's comments until after I posted.
Gary, thank you for commenting. I got the sense you were hesitant to do so based on some prior experience with one of the companies.

Nice to know about the switch vs plate accuracy. I'll read up on it a little more.

Also, thank you for explaining the air activation part.I'll go read that thread if I can find it. Then I'll crash for the night. I am trying to do my homework, but it sounds like I'm not asking the right question. In B-school they used to tell us it's important to know what you don't know. I'm trying to learn that. Thanks.

[todd werner]

You know Gary,
You could have just aimed me at that thread a day or so ago. Might have saved a few guys here some frustration with me And by that I really mean I would have tried to compare each of the machine's equal components, such as steppers to steppers. Since dimension wise they are both more than adequate for me, it sounds like I'd do best thinking of them as pre-assembled kits that come with some company made parts, some important components, and company support. For me, the design differences of ball screw vs rack/pinion aren't going to be as important as the implementation.

I'm going to be taking a class on CNC basics this Fall at a local technical college, so I expect to put time into learning to use this, but I don't plan to wait until after the class to purchase, so I trying to get oriented.

In a way this feels like a John Deere vs Kubota tractor choice. I've owned both, and both make great products, but there are tradeoffs with each. With Kubota I may get slightly more features or capability for x dollars, with Deere I may get slightly less tech but more reliability and a company that overnighted a steel hydraulic line so I could finish a job the next day. Which is more important depends on the user.

I've already stated a preference for low key straight forward sales speak. Doesn't mean I've made a decision, because I clearly have more questions to ask the sales guys, and I'll attribute the sales style difference to culture and age and such. I also suspect the style I don't like will adapt to me, because the people there are nice and will realize I hate a hard sell.

Thanks again,
Todd
Edited because I have different questions now.

[Brad Shipton]

Todd, I have the same machine as Eugene. A Shopsabre RC8. I do not share my personal feelings about the machine online because it would not be fair. I am not your typical consumer, and I should have bought something twice as expensive from a company with staff engineers. I am about to start a retrofit project to upgrade some aspects of my machine.

I have never used a conductive plate as a tool setter, so I have no basis to say how well they might work. From Bruce's comments I doubt I would like that method.

I found the automatic gauges on my machine could be .005" to 0.008" off at times. To determine that I compared measurements from both the automatic tool setter and the analog gauge. I make cabinet door parts, and dovetail drawers on my machine and errors like those lead to more joint repairs than I like. I dropped my old Z axis table measuring tool, and while I was waiting for parts I got used to using my manual one for everything. I repaired the old one and the new one is hanging on the wall, but I never seem to use them anymore. I can reset the height of all 5 tools hanging on my rack in less than 5 minutes, and that is fine for my one man shop. I use the analog one on this page http://www.techniksusa.com/metal/cnatpsg.htm Edge technology makes a more cost effective option than that, but it is much taller and generally for steel milling machines. http://www.edgetechnologyproducts.co...ouch-off-gage/

[Mark Bolton]

Hi Mark,

I think one or two bad experiences spread on the web can bias an entire board, so companies need to be very careful not to let that happen. ShopSabre, at least in my minimal experience, hard sells their product as the ultimate, which always rubs people who do their own research the wrong way. As an example, because they know I'm comparing their machine to CAMaster's, someone there said they heard that CAMaster is moving to all ball screws on their top of the line machines, implying that clearly the SS-23 is better since it uses ball screws not rack and pinion.
It's also bad to copy someone else's design and then say something like, "they're always chasing us on innovation and quality". I can look and see who copied who based on when a machine was introduced. The web makes it easy to figure stuff like that out, so it's bad practice now days.

The people there do seem very nice, but it feels like someone is trying to sell me a timeshare, and I don't get that from CAMaster.

None of what I just wrote means the CAMaster is better than the ShopSabre or that the Shopsabre is better than the CAMaster. It just means I don't like their sales style, but I'll choose based on the machines.

So I'm still trying to figure out which is the better machine for me. Both are good, and nobody here has ever said a specific component on one or the other is inferior or superior. Someone did imply the ShopSabre rails are Chinese and cheap, but it's so off-hand, I don't know how to take that. It's not like anyone said: ShopSabre uses 25mm Chinese rails and CAMaster uses 15mm rails by _______ which are better. I wish someone would be that clear.

I still don't know which uses a better stepper motor, or higher quality rails or controllers or such. Maybe nobody here does either.

But I'd still like to hear opinions on whether the fixed Z touch plate is better than the Z-touch switch. Does a fixed plate it ever break small bits because there's no give to it?

Or will the gantry flex more if I order it with the 7" or clearance?

Both use Mitsubishi VFDs and the same spindles. Both look really solid and well engineered. As of now I'd be deciding between more surface area vs more height and a pneumatic counter balance (since that sounds like a plus, not a minus as I initially thought).

I dont disagree that the hard sell never feels very good when your on the buyer side of the relationship. I dont like it either, but being in business unfortunately until your in a very comfortable position you almost always are striving to close the deal and close it quickly to avoid investing hours and hours of uncompensated time. That said, my personal experience didnt seem all that pressure filled but perhaps thats because we are always dealing with salesman. Try getting on Felders sales call list. They will make sales calls multiple times a year, every year. Cant blame them. It think it can go either way. In our decision we built our own base quotes and shipped them off to multiple mfr.s the vast majority of which went completely unanswered. No call back, no return email, no nothing. Many of those were the big industrial brands that were likely out of our range anyway but the same happened with many of the lighter industrial manufacturers as well.

I think their pitch of buy your second machine first is a very wise one. Most of the complaints I have read here and elsewhere about virtually any manufacturer look, from my perspective, to be cases where we are all trying to be cost conscious and the individual opted down a level or two to save money thinking they would be operating a peak performance on the specs and then after getting their machine realized they should have budgeted a bit higher and moved up a level or two or traded out a couple of desired accessories to get to a bigger/beefier/faster machine. Then you have the complaints that are just plain issues where the purchaser completely misunderstood what a function or capacity was from the start and now just wants to get on a forum an ride a company down for their own oversight.

We came close to making a few of those mistakes ourselves in trying to add all sorts of accessories and thankfully we were lucky to realize and just cut back on the options and pour the money into the best base machine we could.

We are complete CNC noobs but kind of to Garys point, I think a lot of the little details people get focused on in comparing specs will be the least of your concerns when you get up and running.

Im in James' camp in that Im sure both machines are equally good. For me personally I prefer heavy steel over aluminum. I watch our machine breaking down sheets and we normally run wide open and Im thankful for that weight. When we first set up the machine the rapids were scary. Now, I watch it and think of the machines running 800ipm, 1100, and Im wishing we could go faster. But this is plenty fast.

I personally like the touch switch. We have touch switch for auto Z, tool height setter on the tool changer, as well as a spindle mounted touch probe (which we rarely ever use). The only issue I have with the ATC tool height is it has a pad that looks to made of UHMW or something like that and when setting heights on super sharp tools (insert V bits for instance) they will set a touch low because the sharp tip will poke into the plastic slightly. The Auto Z switch dosnt have a soft pad so its spot on every time though I did make some adjustments in the wincnc.ini for the offset of the touch switch to get it closer.

They are all tough decisions when your spending hard earned dollars. I personally dont focus on such specs like what rails are they using, bolts, etc. and so on. Most machines that would even make your list are all using quality components across the board. It begins to lead you down a path of expecting Ferrari specs when your budget is for a mid-to-high quality toyota but thats just my opinion.

[todd werner]

Mark and Brad,
Thank you. That makes a lot of sense.
I edited my last post.
No more questions about the two specific machines until I know more about CNC in general. Time to study.

Editing this post to just to say I'm especially grateful for the explanation on the z height option stuff. More for when I'll try to do Vcarve on a sign vs a dovetail, than for how it might influence what I buy. Information like that points out that I have to learn more to ask the right questions.