CAMaster Stinger 1 or ShopSabre 23

[todd werner]

Hi,

I am hoping some of you guys with more knowledge and experience than I have with CNC machines, could point out any benefits to one option over the other, that I'm not seeing. Also any thoughts on my assessments.

My use of the machine will be purely hobby wood working. My son may be using it occasionally for some aluminum parts for robotics, but mostly it will be used for woodworking.

Price is less than $200 apart on my two choices below with identical software.

Stinger SR-23
25x36" cutting area with gantry overhang on side. 7" under gantry with 9" Z-travel. (This is with their 2" gantry lift)

Options it would include are:
a laser cross hair for xy zero'ing
a Z-touch plate for Z zero'ing
a 2nd mounted Z touch plate for tool length checking after tool changes.
a 1.7KV spindle
a pneumatic counterbalance.

The Shop Sabre 23
30 x 40" cutting area with gantry overhang on side. 5" under gantry with 6 1/2" Z-travel
A mounted Z touch off switch for tool length checking after tool changes.
1.7 KV spindle


CAMaster Pros I see:
1) Z-touch plate included at the price point.
2) Laser
3) More room under Gantry.


Shop Sabre Pros I see:
1) 5 inches wider and 4" longer
2) A Mitsubishi VFD for the spindle vs maybe a Delta VFD. (Both are likely equivalent to me)
3) 25mm rails. (I'm not sure what the CAMaster has on the Stinger 1's. They use 25mm on every other line.)


I don't care about the ShopSabre having a steel gantry cross bar. The Stinger 1's gantry will be plenty stiff at that length and aluminum actually cost more. Also, the vertical supports on the Stinger have a more impressive design to them with some perpendicular pieces. So let's ignore the material difference there.

I don't know if adding 2 inches to the Stinger's gantry height will decrease rigidity significantly. If it won't harm rigidity, the gantry height vs the surface area are a wash to me.

I think not needing a counterbalance for the 1.7KV spindle is an advantage for the ShopSabre because I won't need to run my compressor. I assume it means they have a stronger stepper motor. The ShopSabre uses 2500 ounce/inch motors. I don't know what CAMaster uses.

I don't know if the ShopSabre having all ball screws matters to me.

I think the Mitsubishi VFD may be a small advantage for ShopSabre.
I think the two touch plates of the Camaster beats the single tool height measure on the ShopSabre for convenience, but it's a small advantage.

The ShopSabre definitely has 25mm rails. I'm not sure what the CAMaster has on the Stinger 1. Camaster uses 25mm on every other line. I suspect ShopSabre doesn't want to have to stock a smaller size rail, but that may be a small advantage for them.

So which of the features do you guys think favor one machine over the other, and which seem most important to you? Both companies seem very nice. I will admit, I feel like ShopSabre copied a lot of their 23's design from the CAMaster Stinger's. I don't admire that, but if you think they copied and also improved on the design, I'd like an honest opinion on that. And if you know of any complaints or flaws in either design, I'd like to know about that too.

Thanks for your advice!
Todd

PS) I've been a member for a while, but this may be my first post. If it isn't, it's my first in a long time.

[Jim Becker]

(There's a nice Stinger I for sale in the Camheads forum...'just sayin...includes the 4th axis capability and is 24x48 capacity)

I don't know anything about ShopSabre, but have a Camaster machine on order based on the recommendations of several folks that I trust. I'll be down there end of next week for training and may even get to see my machine "born", depending on timing. At least both companies are US manufacturers and that's appealing to me for sure.

[Dan Schmidt]

I'm interested in what you learned comparing Axiom to Camaster. I'm on the market as well but just beginning the research.

[todd werner]

Hi Jim,
I saw that post. I registered there 10 days ago but still don't have permission to view pictures or post a response on the website. Maybe because I'm not an owner, or maybe I registered wrong somehow.
There's no price listed on that Stinger and it's in Arkansas, which is tricky.
Which Camaster did you order, and between the two machines I'm looking at, do you see any mechanical/design advantages of one over the other?
Thanks,
Todd

[Brad Shipton]

The important part is the quality of the machining and how well it is assembled. You cannot see that from a spec sheet. From the spec sheet they both will do the job. Shop Sabre uses that rail to simplify their life when it comes to supply. If you look at the loads on this rail, a 25mm is not necessary, but when you look at the price difference where they import them from in China you will see it makes no sense to stock multiple parts. If I were in this market I would talk to Gary about one of his machines or go talk to people in person that own either of these machines. I suggest you watch Gary's retrofit videos a couple of threads down. This will give you some more ideas what to be looking for.

[todd werner]

Hi Dan,

Axioms Elite model seems to imply it's servo driven, saying it has "They offer the speed, torque and precision which can only be found in servo-driven machines. Cut at up to 320 IPM while maintaining repeatability of .05mm!" But they don't tell you what they use. It also has a liquid cooled spindle, which may not be bad, but seems like the same cost saving tactic used to bring down the price of a lot of Chinese CNCs and they do look like they come out of the same factory as my Steel City bandsaw or my Grizzly Jointer. Those are great tools, but they're also simple tools, unlike a CNC machine. Sorry I can't offer anything more than my impression that the ShopSabre and Camaster lines are better made.

[Dan Schmidt]

Hi Dan,

Axioms Elite model seems to imply it's servo driven, saying it has "They offer the speed, torque and precision which can only be found in servo-driven machines. Cut at up to 320 IPM while maintaining repeatability of .05mm!" But they don't tell you what they use. It also has a liquid cooled spindle, which may not be bad, but seems like the same cost saving tactic used to bring down the price of a lot of Chinese CNCs and they do look like they come out of the same factory as my Steel City bandsaw or my Grizzly Jointer. Those are great tools, but they're also simple tools, unlike a CNC machine. Sorry I can't offer anything more than my impression that the ShopSabre and Camaster lines are better made.

Absolutely no problem if you are not sure. Anyone else who is knowledgeable about these machines and have any facts?

Dan

[Jim Becker]

Hi Jim,
I saw that post. I registered there 10 days ago but still don't have permission to view pictures or post a response on the website. Maybe because I'm not an owner, or maybe I registered wrong somehow.
There's no price listed on that Stinger and it's in Arkansas, which is tricky.
Which Camaster did you order, and between the two machines I'm looking at, do you see any mechanical/design advantages of one over the other?
Thanks,
Todd

Send a PM to James McGrew (here or on CAMheads) and ask that your account be approved. I think that the notifications of new registrations sometimes gets missed by the administrators there as it seems to be a common issue.

After a lot of thought and angst and manic enlightenment...and driving the sales dude nuts by continual changing to the "next machine up" ...I ended up ordering the Stinger II SR-44. I did start out with the Stinger I SR-24 as I was, at the time, comparing with the Axiom 24x48 Elite machine. I chose Camaster because of both recommendations and because I perceived it to be an extremely well built, heavy and welded frame machine (that included the Stinger I), their use of WinCNC (not sure what ShopSabre is using for control...if it's proprietary, no way would I be comfortable, frankly) and because the setup was completely turn-key and tested before it ships. The Axiom Elite seemed to be a nice machine, but it's mostly made off-shore and I didn't perceive it to be as heavily built as the Camaster. I only went larger because I plan on making the CNC part of the monetization of my shop as a part time retirement business since I left the full-time workforce last fall and became a full time "house husband" to enjoy the fruits of my labors for the past 38 years. It's likely that most of what I'll be making would easily be accommodated by the smaller machine, but since I had the ability to go to the 4x4 and enough room to move it slightly to tile a full sheet if necessary, I did that. The cost didn't double with the size doubling, either. Again, I really don't know much about ShopSabre and don't know anyone personally who owns one. It's good to see that they make their machines "here" like Camaster, however, and they appear to be nicely appointed. And yea, very similar to the school bus yellow offerings from Georgia...

[Alan Marchbanks]

Todd,
I have the Camaster Stinger 1, 23, Equipped nearly identical to the one you are considering but mine included the recoil. Camaster recommends the counter balance and mine has it. Once you apply air pressure to the counter balance it does not consume air volume that will cause a compressor to cycle. When charged, the air pressure in my system has no noticeable drop in pressure and some jobs have run for several hours. I like the machine very much and recommend it. Tech support from Camaster has been exceptional. I've had it for just over two years. Can't speak with personal experience about any other machine. A last thought, I have the 1.7 spindle and do not think water cooling is necessary. I,m sure you'll enjoy whatever you get.
Alan

[todd werner]

Thank you for the responses guys.
Brad,
One of the reasons I posted this question here and at the CNC zone is that I don't know enough about the internals to tell where one company has an advantage over the other. I didn't know Gary sold machines. I did figure out he's very knowledgeable and the Sidewinder with tool changer machine he built looked impressive (and also out of my price range). I also saw that he may have been familiar with at least one of these models. Because of that, I actually PM'd him to ask this question. I got the sense he dislikes one of the companies for possibly poaching ideas, but he didn't offer me any specifics about which one had superior control boards or drives or such, which is what I'd love to learn, as well as the importance of the "luxury" items on the Stinger. I'm not sure I'll understand every answer given either, but if I don't understand, I'll learn enough so that I do before I buy.

Jim,
Thank you for the tip on who to contact at CAMHeads.
I'm almost sure the ShopSabre is also a WinCNC machine.

Thanks Alan.
Do you leave an air hose hooked to the machine at all times? Given what you said, I could hang an 11 gallon harbor freight tank and put a line from that to the CNC. Then all I'd have to do would be to charge it periodically.

[eugene thomas]

I have dealt with both company's. If buying new cnc now would be yellow. Good luck with your journey...

[Alan Marchbanks]

Todd,
I happen to leave mine plugged in all the time, but I think a charge tank would work fine, sure worth a try if you don't have air plumbed near your machine.
Alan

[Jim Becker]

I added a dedicated air drop for the CNC from my air system with a flexible hose (one I had sitting around and don't use normally because it's an old-style heavy rubber do-jobbie) so that if I need to move the machine out for tiling something larger I don't have to futz around with the air supply as there will be a small coil of hose right there with a coil of power cord. The air cylinder that Camaster has for the Spindles helps keep the heavy load off the Z axis motors when raising the spindle and they should wear less and be more accurate as a result. As others have indicated, it's not an "air user" in any way and doesn't even require a substantial air source. It just needs to be regulated to 90 psi (which is less than many compressors provide) and should also have a filter on it.

[Mark Bolton]

From my perspective as an owner of a Shopsaber 408 Pro I can only tell you that you will find an extreme bias here to Camaster which is completely fine because this post may well be deleted

We have had a 408Pro on the floor for nearly 2 years with ZERO problems from their end (only operator error). They have responded to numerous questions nearly immediately via email and the support and communication from the onset of the quoting process, through manufacturing, delivery, acceptance of delivery, and post, have been completely consistent. There was no droop in contact after checks were cashed, after the sale, after delivery. If I mail them right now on a friday night I'd guess Id have a response before they close.

I stated this in another post that was deleted, and I could search back through my emails and phone logs, but I didnt find that to be the case with other manufacturers that were contacted for a machine purchase. Some never saw fit to return a phone call or email or even provide a detailed quote.

Just giving you our personal experience. Others here, and in this thread, have had different experiences but that is ours.

[Jim Becker]

Mark, it's good to hear that you've had a good experience with ShopSabre and I thank you for providing it. I personally wasn't aware of them until the OP asked earlier and I took a few minutes to browse their site to see if I could help him out.