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Thread: CAMaster Stinger 1 or ShopSabre 23

  1. #46
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    Thank you. It sounds like with attention to detail, I could probably plan tool paths to minimize the risk that a slip related position error will go into a job as long as it stops the job after it happens. I think with a little more research I'll be able to at least know what to ask and to see if a closed loop system is worth the upcharge, or if the other options are.

    May I ask what the increase cost of going with the closed loop was on your acorn project? I know it won't mean I can expect similar cost quotes from Camaster or ShopSabre, but I'm curious as to the current cost difference to a small builder/DIY person.

  2. #47
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    It sounds like with attention to detail, I could probably plan tool paths to minimize the risk that a slip related position error will go into a job as long as it stops the job after it happens.
    That will be, as a CNC operator, your main task. No matter what machine you purchase

    I think with a little more research I'll be able to at least know what to ask and to see if a closed loop system is worth the upcharge, or if the other options are.
    I don't think either of those 2 mfgr's offer a closed loop option. I do know that the closed loop drives that I use would not fit into that size control box.

    May I ask what the increase cost of going with the closed loop was on your acorn project?
    You may ask, I will not answer. The number would not be applicable. My costs include parts, machining, wiring, relays and programming related to a different control system that are all part of my standard system. I don't produce machines that are not equipped with higher end closed loop stepper or servo systems. What is or is not included in a custom system that I build a half dozen a year of is totally unrelated to mass produced entry level machines offered by OEM's. In most cases the options you seek are only offered on larger frame model lines.
    Last edited by Jim Becker; 03-11-2018 at 2:38 PM. Reason: Added quote tags to clarify who was saying what...
    Gary Campbell
    CNC Replacement & Upgrade Controllers
    Custom 9012 Centroid ATC

  3. #48
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    Thanks Brad. KW not KV.
    Maybe too much time sorting out tube amp components this week while cleaning up the shop.

  4. #49
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    Todd, I have just a little bit of cnc experience, with a 20 yr old tiny (12" x 10") Technno Davinci machine. I had to replace the drivers and switch to Mach 3, which was an interesting learning experience, but luckily something you won't have to do! I'm a semi-retired studio furniture and banjo maker, just doing banjos right now. So far I've been able to cut and inlay mother of pearl in ebony with astounding accuracy. Also scratch lines to guide my hand engraving. Have cut fret slots, and profiled my fingerboards, again with great accuracy. Next will come some full 3d stuff.

    The real challenge is mastering the software, in my case Adobe Illustrator for drawing, and Fusion 360 for CAD & CAM. This is where all the mistakes take place, and where the learning curve is really steep at first. Just about any machine would have done the work, the Techno happens to be heavily built for its size and accurate, but the cutting forces for inlay & slotting are minute, limited by what the micro endmills can handle.

    When I have the funds, I'd like to upgrade to a larger machine which would still fit into a much smaller shop, for when I downsize from my big commercial space, and 2' x 3' seems just right. I understand wanting to fully understand what makes cnc tick, and what the absolutely perfect, yet affordable, machine would be, that's why I'm watching all these threads and videos. But I think but it's really pretty hopeless, until you actually have enuf hands on experience to relate the theories and myths to real life experience.

    I think any of the machines you're considering would be great for hobby wood and aluminum work, they appear to be smaller size versions of genuine commercial machines, a market niche that has not been very well served. They look well engineered and constructed, by reputable and experienced manufacturers. Certainly more than adequate for hobby use.

    I do think a spindle is a worthwhile option. You should expect much lower run-out with it, which is essential if you use tiny endmills for inlay and slotting. i had to regrind the taper in my machine's Kress router to get from .003 to .0001 run-out, which enabled me to use .015" mills.

    "Buy your second machine first" sounds great, but I'd just pick one of those machines and start making chips. If you need to upgrade later you can easily sell yours, and have the joy of getting a new machine again. That "paralysis by analysis" stuff is real!

  5. #50
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    Thanks Richard. Where are you located. If you're nearby it'd be cool to see the banjos you make, even though I don't play.

    On the machines, I spoke to both companies again. They answered my questions, and for the most part avoided spin or hyperbole. I know I’m at the bottom of a steep learning curve, but I’m comfortable that both machines are well thought out and will be able to do 99% of what I want to try on them. The limiting reagent for the next couple of years is going to be my computer skills!

    You guys were right, whether one offers any benefits over their competitor’s machine probably depends on the user. For anyone who searches on these and finds this thread, what I learned, and what you should confirm if you are looking at these 2, is:

    Both companies machine the gantry faces flat.
    Both use similar bearings, VFDs, and spindles.
    Both use WinCNC.
    Both have enough Z travel to let them lower their spindles to the deck. For the Stinger, that is true with or without the 2” gantry lift.
    The Stinger has NEMA 23's on all axis, and the ShopSabre has 2 23’s and a 34 on the Z. I don’t know the final gear ratios or torque curves. I only know the Oz/Inch rating of what they would put on the machine if I ordered today.
    The CAMaster offers an air counterbalance, the Shop Sabre has a bigger Z motor.

    Sizes are:
    CAMaster Stinger 1 SR23 : 25"x36"x5” or 7” with 9” Z travel
    ShopSabre 23 : 30"x40"x5” with 6 ˝” Z travel

    Don't laugh too hard, given all my questions were about those machines, but one day after I decided to get the SR-23, I measured my space again, moved my 1200lb assembly table 10" to the left, 8" over, and ordered to the CAMaster SR-24.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by todd werner View Post
    Don't laugh too hard, given all my questions were about those machines, but one day after I decided to get the SR-23, I measured my space again, moved my 1200lb assembly table 10" to the left, 8" over, and ordered to the CAMaster SR-24.
    ROFLOL....similar happened to me, but I started with the SR-24, moved to the SR-34 Stinger II and ended up ordering the SR-44. Congrats on your order...and may the next two months go quickly for you.

    BTW...one piece of unsolicited advice: Do the two day training! I just had the pleasure end of last week and it was outstanding. Gary is a gifted instructor, presenter and occasionally comedian. The factory tour was (very yellow) icing on the cake.
    Last edited by Jim Becker; 03-19-2018 at 3:04 PM.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  7. #52
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    Jul 2014
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    North Carolina
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    Hi Jim,
    I don't know when they're doing that training again and usually life is pretty hectic, but I'll look into it.
    I am going to sign up for a CNC course at our local technical college this fall. They offer courses one or two days a week each semester. No intro courses over the summer though.
    I've got several hours of video to watch on Fusion 360, and I'll find some Vectric videos too. None of that is Stinger/WinCNC specific, or VCarve specific, but hopefully my son and I will be able to figure this out.

  8. #53
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    The Vectric video based training is pretty good use of your time. Watching project videos by makers is also "enlightening"; sometimes you get an "oh wow" moment and sometimes you get a "what was that dude/dudette thinking" moment. The two-day training events seem to happen about every two months. Keep your eye on the "News" section of the manufacturer's web site. The $350 cost is reasonable; you can drive there from where you live (I drove from PA...) and the Microtel hotel nearby is also relatively inexpensive at about $60 per. Any training you do is worthwhile because the biggest part of getting going with CNC is the learning curve which is largely centered on the software side of things. That's not to say there are not other things to learn relative to "speeds and feeds", etc., but getting comfortable with the software angle is really important, regardless of machine brand or size.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by todd werner View Post
    Hi Jim,
    I don't know when they're doing that training again and usually life is pretty hectic, but I'll look into it.
    I am going to sign up for a CNC course at our local technical college this fall. They offer courses one or two days a week each semester. No intro courses over the summer though.
    I've got several hours of video to watch on Fusion 360, and I'll find some Vectric videos too. None of that is Stinger/WinCNC specific, or VCarve specific, but hopefully my son and I will be able to figure this out.
    You could also go to the Shopbot page and see what vectric training they have on line. The training is not Shobot specific and TJ does a pretty good job.

  10. #55
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    https://www.youtube.com/user/Vectric/playlists

    Huge number of training videos directly from the horse's mouth...
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  11. #56
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    Jul 2014
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    North Carolina
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    Shopbot is only 20 minutes away from my home, and I could have gotten a great deal on their Desktop Max from someone 2 hours away that used it for 10 hours and then upsized. I almost feel disloyal for not buying from ShopBot, but the Camaster and ShopSabre overhang will let me work on the ends of a guitar neck if I want to, without pulling the aluminum t-rail deck off the Shopbot.

    That Desktop Max with a 1hp spindle and a 6" rotary indexer, plus several bits, less than a couple of months old, is still on CL for a 9k ask. That's about 25% off. They might take less, but they didn't write me back when asked if they'd consider 8.

  12. #57
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    One of the folks I met in training last week plans to use his Stinger for guitar work including necks.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  13. #58
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    Just one participant?

    That must have been a small class, because statistics show:

    95% of men in the U.S. own a guitar
    96% of them want to make a guitar
    97% think they can make a better guitar than they can buy
    98% of them can't play the guitar they own

    and 99% of all statistics are made up on the spot

  14. #59
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    Oct 2009
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    Marquette, MI USA
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    Todd...
    Check your statistics. Mine say that 86.7% are made up on the spot
    Gary Campbell
    CNC Replacement & Upgrade Controllers
    Custom 9012 Centroid ATC

  15. #60
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    North Carolina
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    That does sound more accurate Gary

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