What do you consider a panel saw to be?

[lowell holmes]

Another string about Disston saws mentions a panel saw.

I thought a panel saw is a shorter hand saw than a D7 or D8 . My D7 and D8 saws are 26" saws.
I consider a 20" hand saw to be a panel saw and a 26" to be a handsaw.
Am I mistaken?

[Phil Mueller]

Full credit to the Disstonian Institute:

Cross-cut saws, 24 inches and less in length are termed panel saws. Panel saws are exactly like cross-cut saws in every respect except the length of the blade and the number of teeth. Panel saws usually have finer teeth than full size hand saws.

[Patrick Chase]

Full credit to the Disstonian Institute:

Cross-cut saws, 24 inches and less in length are termed panel saws. Panel saws are exactly like cross-cut saws in every respect except the length of the blade and the number of teeth. Panel saws usually have finer teeth than full size hand saws.

Except of course that there are such things as rip-filed panel saws, even in Disston's line. Remember that the Disstonian Institute is just one person's opinion, and not in any way affiliated with Disston.

[steven c newman]

Tell THAT to the four panel saws I have hanging on my saw till....8-10 ppi....20-24" length.

Unless Patrick is thinking of Tool Box Saws?

The Disstonian Institute IS the only source of info on Disston saws......much like Prof. Chase is about steel...

[Joe Bailey]

From our own Pete Taran, in an article he published in the fall of '97

"The term panel saw defines a large class of saws that varied in length from 16 to 24 inches. ... Their smaller size was convenient for working inside the shop, making cuts almost exclusively in seasoned, dressed stock. This type of saw was also popular in manual training schools for boys, where a full sized saw would be too unwieldy. Typical uses for panel saws were cutting and ripping stock to a final dimension. By far the most common panel saw found is the 24 inch 9 point. Less common are panel saws with rip teeth, although they are not rare. The most common rip panel saw is the 7 point. In addition, more and more variety of pitches were available as the saw length approached a full size hand or rip saw. For instance, in 1918, the D8 crosscut panel saw was available in 9 and 10 ppi in the 16 inch length, but at 24 inches was available in 7-11 points per inch. A favorite use for the rip panel saw was cutting tenon cheeks in work that was too big for the ordinary back saw."

found here: http://www.vintagesaws.com/library/f...97/fall97.html

[Patrick Chase]

Tell THAT to the four panel saws I have hanging on my saw till....8-10 ppi....20-24" length.

How on Earth does that disprove what I said? My point is that the Disstonian Institute is wrong when it says that panel saws are "cross-cut saws". They're made (both in Disston's time and today) in rip toothings as well.

The Disstonian Institute IS the only source of info on Disston saws......much like Prof. Chase is about steel...

The two routes by which people typically become experts in this stuff are by being either dealers or sawmakers. Erik von Sneidern (the "Disstonian Institute") is neither. He's just some random self-annointed authority who managed to squat on a domain that has the word "Disston" in it and posted what he (thought he) knew. By taking the time to do so he did a service to all of us, but he's also quite fallible and certainly not "the only source". Not even close.

To be clear I don't consider myself an expert, but I also pay enough attention to know that the real experts often disagree with Erik. I also have seen plenty of rip-filed panel saws (and own one), so it's quite clear that he's wrong.

My expertise about steel is also very relative. I have more formal training and design experience than the vast majority of people, but I'm a zero compared to the real experts (who are unfortunately too busy formulating steels to talk about them on SMC). That's why I almost always provide citations when I say anything deeply technical, as in "don't take my word for it, check the reference". As Clint Eastwood said, "A [person's] got to know [their] limitations".

[Warren Mickley]

I have always considered a panel saw as one with smaller teeth. Here is a Merriam Webster dictionary entry from 1886:

Panel saw: a saw with very fine teeth for cutting out panels. Tomlinson

The dictionary references Tomlinson, who was almost certainly quoting Holtzapffel.

We use the word panel to describe boards that are on the thin side as in frame and panel or dust panel.

Here is Nicholson (1812):

nicholson panel saw.jpeg

[Patrick Chase]

I have always considered a panel saw as one with smaller teeth.

Would you consider a fine-toothed 26-inch saw to be a panel saw?

Now you've got me curious...

[Warren Mickley]

Would you consider a fine-toothed 26-inch saw to be a panel saw?

Now you've got me curious...

Yes I would. What else are you going to use it for?

[Pete Taran]

While proving the "Institute" wrong is kind of like shooting fish in a barrel and does not bring me much satisfaction these days, I do feel compelled to actually post real data which supports reality. please consider the following photo:

hand_panel.jpg

It's a snapshot of the D8 line from the 1892 full line catalog. If you click on the link, and blow it up full size, you will very clearly see that in the PANEL category are saws 16" to 24" long. Hand Saws are 26" long and Rip Saws are 28" and 30" long. In later catalogs, they actually made 28" handsaws which means a saw that is 28" long and had cross cut teeth as well as rip saws which started at 26" long and went up to 30" long. PANEL saws could be had in either crosscut or rip.

To Warren's point, consider the following from the 1918 catalog:

1918.jpg

You will notice that in saws as short as 20" you could get a PANEL saw in 8 point crosscut. A 24" inch panel saw could be had with 7 point teeth which is very coarse. Also notice that you could get a 24" panel saw with rip teeth as coarse as 5 points. Very coarse indeed! Seems to rebut all of which has been mentioned here. It's very unfortunate modern day experts were not around 150 years ago to set Henry straight. A travesty!

Yours in sawing truth,

Pete

[Pat Barry]

Check out those prices, were they the wholesale prices?

[Warren Mickley]

Here is a catalog from a little closer to the 150 years ago you mention, 1873; it shows 26 inch panel saws.

disston saws 1873.png

The same catalog shows the little panel saws, called Gentlemen's Panel Saws.

disston gentleman saw.png
I can think of two good uses for a 10 point 26 inch saw, sawing panels and filling out a collection.

[steven c newman]

IF you WANTED one as a rip cut...you ORDERED it that way. Disston listed them so EVERYONE had a list of options as to what they needed.
Where did this"Disstonian Institute " is "Wrong" schtick come from? nobody died and made others master of all saw info. Hamilton et.al. sold their business to HK Porter..not to the Tarans and Baileys out there...

I also have an atkins catalog sitting on my desk..Jan. 1898 edition....should I quote from that as well? Only to have two self-appointed Gurus declare I am seeing things wrong?

A rip saw that "short" will wear your arm out, very fast....as it will take a lot more strokes to do the same as a longer Rip saw....26-30" long...

There rest of the above post^ is simply Clear? phfffft. I use the D. I as a guide to things Disston....what happens to a saw AFTER it was sold...Disston had no control over how some would-be saw person/expert would "customize " a saw....

I do check the references....Need to find one on Richardson Brothers, and maybe Bishop...Simonds wasn't around very long.

But, that's ok, keep up in your own little world....provides me plenty of laughs reading them....

[brian zawatsky]

Um, considering the fact the Pete founded Independence Tools which contributed in large part to the revival in quality USA made hand tools that we’re seeing now (or at least Tom Lie Nielsen thought so, anyway) and continues to make a living as a dealer in vintage saws, I’d say he’s earned the right to be considered an expert in the subject.

[Phil Mueller]

Pete and Warren, thank you for posting the catalog pages. Before this thread gets blocked, I find it interesting that although the “headline” in Pete’s second catalog photo says Panel, it only shows crosscut and rip saws. I wonder if the headline was just a carry over from another page or something...maybe a “misprint”, unless there is more to the page than what is shown. Also, I don’t see anything in the catalog pages that specifically identifies a group as Panel saws that have a length beyond 24”.

Just about everyone knows more about saws than I, but it seems the label “Panel” applied to 24” or less. Although...Warren, your thought on any saw with fine teeth could be considered a Panel saw, makes perfect sense, given the use of a fine tooth saw. Maybe “Panel” was just one of those terms that got muddied up along the way. Certainly not something that would occur in today’s world

Anyway, I’m enjoying the more experienced input...