Is this why people use mortise chisels?

[Simon MacGowen]

I have actually, I don’t prefer it. I prefer to use the correct tools for the job as many craftsmen prior to myself have come to the tool for a reason.

I have no stake in what you do or Sellers does. I’m offering input from cutting about a few thousand mortises by hand. When I write of the struggle I am writing I’m writing about the insight I’ve gained in doing this work many times and with speed and effectiveness as the goal in addition to quality.

Effective is making an average sized Mortise in 3-4 minutes cleanly and accurately so that this work does not take eons. I’ve posted videos of myself cutting mortises.

So what is your point?

The Brian's way is the only RIGHT way? Only 3-min mortises are effective or good? So for dovetails, everyone must do them in 3.5 mins as Rob Cosman did? If you have to be efficient because every job is money for you, fine; I enjoy woodworking as a hobby and speed is the least I am concerned with...though I used to be. Your insights may be good, so can be others', definitely Paul's or mine.

I don't know what tools you have or use for every job in your work. If you expect every good woodworker to be working like you, forget it. You will only be disappointed. I know people who don't have a Japanese hammer or chisels in their shops and they do good work. It will be an insult to them, I think, if I try to tell them they need a Japanese hammer to drive their wedged tenons home.

Simon

[Jim Koepke]

I have actually, I don’t prefer it. I prefer to use the correct tools for the job as many craftsmen prior to myself have come to the tool for a reason.

So what is your point?

The Brian's way is the only RIGHT way?

To me, taking what one states as their preference and twisting it into them saying it is the "only RIGHT way" is a bit of a stretch and could even be construed as being a bit uncivil.

My solution to ineffective mortise cutting with bench chisels was to find some affordable mortise chisels.

For those who can not afford more than a single set of chisels, they can do what they want in their own shops. If they come to my shop to my tools and a mortise is to be chopped, they will only be offered one of my mortise chisels to do the job. If they want to drill it first, then a different chisel may be offered.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

35* micor bevel isn't hard to do at all.

Is this meant to imply everyone should have a 35º micro bevel on their bench chisels?

If not, when one wants to return this to an angle better suited to paring end grain should they just grind away a bunch of metal?

This gets back to there being more than one way to chop a mortise or to perform just about any other task in woodworking.

jtk

[James Pallas]

Mortise chisels are great. Bench chisels work ok. You do have to take some extra care. I recently made a project that I wanted 3/16 mortises. Didn't have a mortise chisel but did have a 1/4 Stanley 60. I ground the lands down and had something with narrow lands that looked suspiciously like a mortise chisel. Used it. Put it in the mortise chisel rack. I now have a 3/16 mortise chisel should the need arise.
Jim

[Simon MacGowen]

To me, taking what one states as their preference and twisting it into them saying it is the "only RIGHT way" is a bit of a stretch and could even be construed as being a ...uncivil

jtk

Please re read all his responses to see his INSISTENCE that a chisel approach is wrong. So not sure why he is close-minded here.

He isn't simply stating his preference. Me uncivil? That is overblown.

Regarding 35*, no implication there on anything. Please don't overread.

Simon

[Brian Holcombe]

Please don't overread.

Simon

I'd ask you to do the same, you've done that repeatedly to me over the course of this conversation. I found this conversation difficult as I felt as though my words are being twisted in each reply.

You're welcome to state your option, I come to this board expecting that I can do the same.

[Simon MacGowen]

I'd ask you to do the same, you've done that repeatedly to me over the course of this conversation. I found this conversation difficult as I felt as though my words are being twisted in each reply.

You're welcome to state your option, I come to this board expecting that I can do the same.

Ok. Misunderstanding on our part. All good.

Back to the shop...house chores took longer than expected.

Simon

[Stanley Covington]

I deleted my previous message, after investigating what I appeared to be endorsing. Each time you introduce a tool to the work, it is an opportunity to ruin it. Most often a better idea to saw to the line, chisel to the line. Caveats apply. And I was violating my personal policy of not extending advice, so a generic statement will do.

Stanley, are those bottles in the middle the Sword Tsubaki that is faux camellia? I found this while excavating in my archaeological workshop dig.

Attachment 380953

Yes, they are. Any gold burial masks show up in the dig? Pics please.

[Stanley Covington]

The only way to compare the performance of a beveled chisel to a properly set-up mortise chisel in cutting mortises is to own both types, and use both types to cut identical mortises in the same wood. If one has not done this simple, obvious, common-sense test, then opinions are hot air.

I have.

A well set-up mortise chisel will always cut a mortise more precisely and more quickly than a bevel chisel. It is a specialized chisel, one that doesn't work well for anything else.

You can shave with a pocket knife, or cut a shirt pattern in cloth with the same knife, even perhaps with great skill and speed, but a razor and scissors are more likely to do a better job of these specialized tasks.

Give it a try.

[Simon MacGowen]

The only way to compare the performance of a beveled chisel to a properly set-up mortise chisel in cutting mortises is to own both types, and use both types to cut identical mortises in the same wood. If one has not done this simple, obvious, common-sense test, then opinions are hot air.

I have.

A well set-up mortise chisel will always cut a mortise more precisely and more quickly than a bevel chisel. It is a specialized chisel, one that doesn't work well for anything else.

You can shave with a pocket knife, or cut a shirt pattern in cloth with the same knife, even perhaps with great skill and speed, but a razor and scissors are more likely to do a better job of these specialized tasks.

Give it a try.

I have done that, too and so has Paul as seen on his video. The bench chisel method was slower as I stated in one of my responses.

I cannot remember if Paul reached the same conclusion.

Simon

[Stanley Covington]

I have done that, too and so has Paul as seen on his video. The bench chisel method was slower as I stated in one of my responses.

I cannot remember if Paul reached the same conclusion.

Simon

Thanks for confirming. I was not being critical. I was simply concerned that others might have missed these points in the flurry of comments.

I have no doubts Mr Sellers has conducted the same test, and reached the same conclusions during his long and celebrated teaching career.

I have not seen any of his videos except those on YouTube, but judging from those I’ve seen, he tends to keep things very simple and uses basic tools instead of specialized tools. This is an admirable approach considering his video audience, and not being a tool salesman.

But judging by the tools displayed in the cabinets behind his stage workbench, he has very advanced tools at hand. I must assume that they are not just stage dressing, but he not only knows how to use them all, but does use them outside his teaching videos.

Am I mistaken?

[Mike Baker 2]

Thanks for confirming. I was not being critical. I was simply concerned that others might have missed these points in the flurry of comments.

I have no doubts Mr Sellers has conducted the same test, and reached the same conclusions during his long and celebrated teaching career.

I have not seen any of his videos except those on YouTube, but judging from those I’ve seen, he tends to keep things very simple and uses basic tools instead of specialized tools. This is an admirable approach considering his video audience, and not being a tool salesman.

But judging by the tools displayed in the cabinets behind his stage workbench, he has very advanced tools at hand. I must assume that they are not just stage dressing, but he not only knows how to use them all, but does use them outside his teaching videos.

Am I mistaken?

I think you are correct. I was watching one of his videos the other day, and he stated "My plane blades are honed to 20k."
That is a far cry from what he demonstrates in most of his videos, and I think, as has been stated, he is trying to keep things simple for beginners, to get them IN the shop and working. But I have watched everything he has on Youtube at least twice, and I can't quote specific videos, but I have heard him say at least a couple of times something to the effect that you will change your perception of what sharp is as you progress as a woodworker. One of the things he advocates is hands on learning, and I think he understands that as we progress in this, we will move beyond what he is teaching and explore different techniques and tools as we see the need for them. I can tell you that I started out sharpening to around 1k and then moving to a pasted strop, but I have come to understand as I am moving forward that that will not do what I need, so I have stepped beyond it. He is sort of a mentor, because I like his "You can do this" attitude, which as a new woodworker I desperately need. But I have a brain, and no compunctions about using it.

[Stanley Covington]

I think you are correct. I was watching one of his videos the other day, and he stated "My plane blades are honed to 20k."
That is a far cry from what he demonstrates in most of his videos, and I think, as has been stated, he is trying to keep things simple for beginners, to get them IN the shop and working. But I have watched everything he has on Youtube at least twice, and I can't quote specific videos, but I have heard him say at least a couple of times something to the effect that you will change your perception of what sharp is as you progress as a woodworker. One of the things he advocates is hands on learning, and I think he understands that as we progress in this, we will move beyond what he is teaching and explore different techniques and tools as we see the need for them. I can tell you that I started out sharpening to around 1k and then moving to a pasted strop, but I have come to understand as I am moving forward that that will not do what I need, so I have stepped beyond it. He is sort of a mentor, because I like his "You can do this" attitude, which as a new woodworker I desperately need. But I have a brain, and no compunctions about using it.

I think one common cause of acrimony on this forum is the difference in attitude between those that read/comment that have lots of experience, and find Mr Seller’s methods simplistic and no longer informative, and those that love his methods and have learned a lot from him, and that will accept to comments regarding Mr Sellers but praise.

Neither is wrong. Both need to think first, then comment.

[Mike Baker 2]

I think one common cause of acrimony on this forum is the difference in attitude between those that read/comment that have lots of experience, and find Mr Seller’s methods simplistic and no longer useful, and those that love his methods and have learned a lot from him, and that will accept to comments regarding Mr Sellers but praise.

Neither is wrong. Both need to think first, then comment.

100% agree with that assessment. We all need to get along if we can.

[Mike Baker 2]

I also think that when you add in the fact that we are not face to face, but communicate by written word, that can help escalate tension through no fault of either party. If you and I are looking at each other face to face, there is alot of visual communication going on that gets lost responding on a forum, and I know that I myself have a difficult time expressing myself correctly via a keyboard.