Is this why people use mortise chisels?

[Simon MacGowen]

Mortising should not be done with a bench chisel in my opinion. A bench chisel doesn’t self jig like a Mortise chisel does and will likely cause the user to make mortises that need to be fixed.

Its great to keep a minimal tool kit but opting out of Mortise chisels is not the best way to achieve that.

Mortising is not easy to learn, it took me a number of years working by myself and cutting mortises by hand to Mortise with consistency and confidence. I do not think it does any service to anyone to advocate the wrong tools for the job, just makes the trying a few months or years longer.

I have cut mortises blind as well as through with both mortising chisels and bench chisels. I find that if one uses a layered approach (Ian Kirby's approach), a bench chisel works well. Also, a bench chisel can be used to define a mortise's parameter cleanly before chopping starts. Admittedly, the chisel approach may be slower.

Between mortises and tenons, I find more people struggling with sawing tenons than mortising.

Simon

[Tony Wilkins]

I have cut mortises blind as well as through with both mortising chisels and bench chisels. I find that if one uses a layered approach (Ian Kirby's approach), a bench chisel works well. Also, a bench chisel can be used to define a mortise's parameter cleanly before chopping starts. Admittedly, the chisel approach may be slower.

Between mortises and tenons, I find more people struggling with sawing tenons than mortising.

Simon

I am unfamiliar with Kirby’s layered approach. Can you link to it or describe it?

[Brian Holcombe]

I have cut mortises blind as well as through with both mortising chisels and bench chisels. I find that if one uses a layered approach (Ian Kirby's approach), a bench chisel works well. Also, a bench chisel can be used to define a mortise's parameter cleanly before chopping starts. Admittedly, the chisel approach may be slower.

Between mortises and tenons, I find more people struggling with sawing tenons than mortising.

Simon

Defining the perimeter is done with the gauge, not sure why a bench chisel needs to be involved in that process.

I teach people how to cut mortises and while you can cut one with a bench chisel it’s more likely to end up out of square.

Mortise chisels are longer and provide a better visual reference to square, they are deeper and provide a resistance to twisting in the cut.

There is a reason why two cultures having worked practically independent of one another for thousands of years both approach Mortising with a chisel that is nearly identical.

[Simon MacGowen]

I am unfamiliar with Kirby’s layered approach. Can you link to it or describe it?

Will dig out that for you this evening as soon as I finish a project in the shop. If I can't find that, I will do a quick write-up.

Simon

[Simon MacGowen]

Defining the perimeter is done with the gauge, not sure why a bench chisel needs to be involved in that process.

I teach people how to cut mortises and while you can cut one with a bench chisel it’s more likely to end up out of square.

Mortise chisels are longer and provide a better visual reference to square, they are deeper and provide a resistance to twisting in the cut.

There is a reason why two cultures having worked practically independent of one another for thousands of years both approach Mortising with a chisel that is nearly identical.

Have you seen people struggling, including those with less than perfect eyesight, chopping right on the scribed lines with a mortise chisel, thereby bruising the defining perimeters? I have seen a lot with a closer visual exam.

The bruising doesn't matter if it is covered by the shoulder of a tenon, which may not be the case in a through tenon joint. I have seen unsightly joints because of that.

A bench chisel can be used in such cases to "define" the mortise dead on the scribed lines first and all subsequent chopping would be done inside the defined walls, almost guaranteeing a clean, bruise-free mortise.

There was a video series by a Chinese fellow doing lots of mortising and he did most of his chopping work sitting on a bench seat. His work was super quick. Very quick and very good mortises on the whole. However, some of the mortises could be seen bruised on the outside (show side) a little.

While Paul's bench chisel approach may not appeal to some traditionalists, it is an option, a very workable one after I tried it more than once, to those who do occasional M&T joints and don't want to get a set of mortising chisels.

All roads lead to Rome.

Simon

[Simon MacGowen]

Found it:


http://www.rockler.com/how-to/ian-ki...chisel-mallet/

This British-trained teacher may not have a following on social media like Paul Sellers, but his techniques are solid. I have found his work on dovetails the best instructional material for a beginner, even better than Rob Cosman's.

Simon

[Brian Holcombe]

Defining a Mortise by chopping out the top with a bench chisel is a way to add room for error and has not effect on bruising which is caused by twisting the chisel or starting it crooked.

On a visible through Mortise I will usually leave a very tiny amount to pare off the sides and make for a perfectly clean Mortise.

Other than that, it takes practice to get it right much like sawing the line or other things that require skill. I adjust my technique slightly for certain work like visible through tenons.

I explain to my students that I teach them technique not perfection. Perfection is not learned immediately but takes time and practice. Hand tool work is not without struggle but that struggle is quite meaningful eventually. It helps gain a self reliance and assurance that helps make quick work that is clean in appearance.

If they have trouble seeing the lines, strike deeper lines or improve your lighting.

[Simon MacGowen]

Defining a Mortise by chopping out the top with a bench chisel is a way to add room for error and has not effect on bruising which is caused by twisting the chisel or starting it crooked.

On a visible through Mortise I will usually leave a very tiny amount to pare off the sides and make for a perfectly clean Mortise.

Other than that, it takes practice to get it right much like sawing the line or other things that require skill. I adjust my technique slightly for certain work like visible through tenons.

I explain to my students that I teach them technique not perfection. Perfection is not learned immediately but takes time and practice. Hand tool work is not without struggle but that struggle is quite meaningful eventually. It helps gain a self reliance and assurance that helps make quick work that is clean in appearance.

If they have trouble seeing the lines, strike deeper lines or improve your lighting.

No one would agrue that good practice is the key to achieving great techniques and results. If using a bench chisel to mortise is not your recommended approach or seems struggling for you (for whatever reason), you should stick to what you are comfortable with. I am not here to defend for Paul but I have tried his bench chisel method (35*) (have you?) and found it a totally workable technique. His youtube video for anyone to see for themselves if it works for them.

You might prefer a Japanese saw or sonething else to cut dovetails. I have seen dovetails cut by a hack saw and heck, it was not too bad. You don't need to follow and use a hack saw, but you should not say a dovetail saw is the only right tool for the job. Unless you specify that it is the right tool for you.

Simon

[Jim Koepke]

I am not here to defend for Paul but I have tried his bench chisel method (35*) (have you?) and found it a totally workable technique.

35º is a pretty steep angle for most work a bench chisel will be called upon to perform. If one keeps regrinding it for the different tasks it will be a nub before long.

Some of my first mortises were cut with bench chisels. Yes, it can be done. Is it as efficient as using a chisel made specifically for the purpose of mortising? No.

Maybe we should spend more time on how a mortising chisel can be used for paring dovetails. It can be done.

If one is in a pinch for time or lack of resources, then improvising is fine. If one wants to get on with a job and can afford tools made for the job then why do it the hard way?

You might prefer a Japanese saw or sonething else to cut dovetails. I have seen dovetails cut by a hack saw and heck, it was not too bad. You don't need to follow and use a hack saw, but you should not say a dovetail saw is the only right tool for the job. Unless you specify that it is the right tool for you.

Surely there are examples of dovetails cut with a two man saw. Most likely it was the right tool for the job when building a log cabin.

Again, using a tool made for a specific task will make performing that task less daunting. If my recollection is correct Steven Newman uses a large handsaw at times to cut his dovetails. One of my challenges at work was to use a hacksaw to rip a 1/8" diameter skewer, it worked fine. For those who want to know it was a way to remove a bill jammed in a bill processor in ticket vendors.

Then there was the idiot in one of my workplaces who made himself difficult for others to get along with by doing things like grabbing a crescent wrench when he wanted to drive a nail instead of walking two steps more to grab a hammer hanging on the wall.

So sure, a mortise can be made with a bench chisel. Please do not do it in my shop or within my sight.

jtk

[Brian Holcombe]

No one would agrue that good practice is the key to achieving great techniques and results. If using a bench chisel to mortise is not your recommended approach or seems struggling for you (for whatever reason), you should stick to what you are comfortable with. I am not here to defend for Paul but I have tried his bench chisel method (35*) (have you?) and found it a totally workable technique. His youtube video for anyone to see for themselves if it works for them.

You might prefer a Japanese saw or sonething else to cut dovetails. I have seen dovetails cut by a hack saw and heck, it was not too bad. You don't need to follow and use a hack saw, but you should not say a dovetail saw is the only right tool for the job. Unless you specify that it is the right tool for you.

Simon

I have actually, I don’t prefer it. I prefer to use the correct tools for the job as many craftsmen prior to myself have come to the tool for a reason.

I have no stake in what you do or Sellers does. I’m offering input from cutting about a few thousand mortises by hand. When I write of the struggle I am writing I’m writing about the insight I’ve gained in doing this work many times and with speed and effectiveness as the goal in addition to quality.

Effective is making an average sized Mortise in 3-4 minutes cleanly and accurately so that this work does not take eons. I’ve posted videos of myself cutting mortises.

Pictures;

[Tony Wilkins]

Found it:


http://www.rockler.com/how-to/ian-ki...chisel-mallet/

This British-trained teacher may not have a following on social media like Paul Sellers, but his techniques are solid. I have found his work on dovetails the best instructional material for a beginner, even better than Rob Cosman's.

Simon

it may be more traditional than we think. Sounds similar in some ways to a method that Adam Cherubini described in a PW article several years ago (“Advanced Chisel Techniques” IIRC). I have seen Kirby on Dovetails and it’s good stuff.

[john jesseph]

I deleted my previous message, after investigating what I appeared to be endorsing. Each time you introduce a tool to the work, it is an opportunity to ruin it. Most often a better idea to saw to the line, chisel to the line. Caveats apply. And I was violating my personal policy of not extending advice, so a generic statement will do.

Stanley, are those bottles in the middle the Sword Tsubaki that is faux camellia? I found this while excavating in my archaeological workshop dig.

image.jpg

[Patrick Chase]

Stanley, is this the Sword Tsubaki that is faux camellia? I found this while excavating my archeological workshop dig.

The printing on those is identical to my bottle of camellia-scented mineral oil (which is what I believe you're referring to).

Real camellia oil is nasty stuff for tool preservation because it polymerizes and forms a thick goop. I know this because back when I started I saw all of the people recommending "camellia oil", and went out of my way to get the real thing (I checked the MSDS' for the tool-oriented stuff and discovered early on that it was scented mineral oil). Big mistake. It turns out that the people doing the recommending were all using overpriced white mineral oil.

[john jesseph]

Yes, that's it, edited for clarity. What do the bottles say? I bought one bottle a long time ago, the other came with a load of tools I bought. I ended up using it in French polishing, not on tools.

Interesting that you found and used actual camellia oil. I thought it was a somewhat common Asian cooking oil.

[Simon MacGowen]

35º is a pretty steep angle for most work a bench chisel will be called upon to perform. If one keeps regrinding it for the different tasks it will be a nub before long.


So sure, a mortise can be made with a bench chisel. Please do not do it in my shop or within my sight.

jtk

Ahh.. lunch break could use some brain.

35* micor bevel isn't hard to do at all. Free hand, of course. And before you chime in, 35* give or take...no jig please.

I welcome anyone, including Paul Sellers, with a bench chisel into my shop meaning to demo or do some mortise work. Please send any of your visitors my way if they happen to be meaning to mortise with a bench chisel in your shop! If they are British, Paul should be happy to have them.

Not within your sight. Easy, don't watch any of Paul's videos, as you can never tell if it has him mortising with a....
Simon