Contributor
Lee, Prashun, Mods in General
One of the reasons I use and support SMC is the lack of personal venom, flaming, etc compared to other forums. In general you do a good job in keeping the tone above all that. Thank you for editing my post. I did not intend it to be personally insulting to the person I was addressing, simply to disagree with him strongly. If you think I crossed the line, I apologize.
All the best.
Doug
[OP]
Member
I appreciate the perspective of many of those who expressed their concerns about the safety aspects of the video posted in this thread which I started. None of them intends to police or is interested in, as far as I am concerned, policing anything. It is totally unfair for anyone to suggest that expressing objections and opinions against the unsafe shop behavior seen in the video is an act of policing. Policing what and under what, if not whose, authority?Originally Posted by David Kumm
So when a view is not what you want to hear, it makes those who share the views a dictator? A police chief? Is that what this Forum is all about: Policing vs not policing? We need not apologize for pointing out any unsafe shop practices and I don't care who is demonstrating them. Be him or her woodworking for a living, producing video contents for fun or for money or for sharing, or just doing woodworking as a hobby. Unsafe shop routines are unsafe shop routines. Period.
Simon
Last edited by Simon MacGowen; 03-10-2018 at 6:20 PM.
Moderator
Thread re-opened because a few enjoyed the debate. Keep comments non-personal.
Contributor
Woodworking, especially with power tools has some inherent danger. Each situation is its own potential safety risk. Each individual needs to make his own decisions on how they will accomplish each step of the process and should assess what could go wrong and determine how they can manage the risks. Learning from others is important to finding better and safer ways to operate the equipment and perform the task at hand. Calling someone an idiot or moron for doing something that is apparently umsafe doesn't help anyone. Suggesting a better or safer method or approach does if it is descriptive enough to be understood. I'd like to see alternatives presented more frequently as there is always a potentially better or safer way to do many things.
Contributor
Completely agree with Pat and would be interested to see the discussion move in that direction.
Guest
Thank you, I didn't think it deserved to be closed
So this has been prevelant for quite a while, but has really ramped up lately. What is the deal with the virtue signaling of the "I'm safer than you" crowd?
Contributor
I suspect there is an underlying discomfort about the economic realities of professional woodworking (or other similar work) that is feeding a need to signal "I'm not part of [that group]". Hobbyists (or those living in countries with stronger worker safety protections - like Canada) feel that safety is paramount and non-negotiable, while people trying to make a living (particularly self-employed people) are more willing to acknowledge that the poor state of safety technology (or the cost thereof) means small risks need to be taken to be successful.
The ideal solution would be less-invasive, more workable, lower-cost safety technologies.
Contributor
I recall a thread on shapers lately where professionals commented on best practice and which guarding they preferred for shaping curves. This was in reply to a hobbyist who had a close call (iirc).
Professionals are an important resource in this respect as many who are self employed realize that time away from work means considerable financial stress and possible loss of orders.
Last edited by Brian Holcombe; 03-11-2018 at 10:37 AM.
Contributor
Yes, thank you for re-opening the thread. Yes there have been a few inflammatory exchanges, but there have also been some interesting and educational insights in this discussion.
For my part, I've re-watched the video with some consideration for the opposing points of view, and making an effort to ignore those practices that made me wince the first time, I'd say he's definitely a talented builder. His woodworking construction techniques are sound and some are downright clever.
Martin, I don't think safety is a virtue as such, but I see no downside to working a little safer and demonstrating the same. At worst, it takes a small amount of additional time.
Maybe we would all agree on some simple practices. For example just keeping hands outside the distance of the table saw throat insert when the blade is spinning. That was the firm rule in the last pro shop where I worked for someone else. He said it was the reason the inserts are red.
Is a more safety oriented pro shop any less professional than a less safety oriented pro shop?
Edwin
Contributor
+1 Well said Brian.
+2 for moving this thread move in the direction Pat Barry suggested.
Fred
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
“If you want to know what a man's like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals.”
Contributor
No. But how about the simple practice of never touching the blade while it is spinning?
"Anything seems possible when you don't know what you're doing."
Member
Safe and practical for people who essentially live over a tablesaw, or other woodworking tool for 8-12 hours a day every day for a living, is quite different than a hobbiest who might see an hour or two a week, on a very busy week.
Those that do it for a living are balancing safety, and livelihood every minute of every day.
If there is anyone that CANNOT afford to get hurt, it is the self employed 1 man show.
There was nothing shown that was very or extremely dangerous to a seasoned person. Could he have stopped and rigged up a clamp for every single setup, yes. BUT, we would still be watching that video a week from now.
As a full time woodworker, and not, say, a full time logger, or deep sea fisherman, there is one thing I have learned.- We don't know, what we don't know, and sometimes what we don't know looks dangerous- because we don't have the experience.
Different levels of experience, equates to different levels of tool usage.
I could not do 25 years ago, with the tools I have, what I can do today.
I have lived with them, learned from them, and yes used them in ways I might never have thought of back then.
However, I do think as a whole, that I probably work safer and smarter than I did.
Why? Because I have the experience to do so, even though I can calculate and do jobs that at one point were risky for my level of expertise, but now I have a keener awareness of the minute little details that make a process safe to perform.
Administrator
Most YouTube videos are created by people who are interested in showing their techniques to others. They are not intended to be training videos. You have to accept this as fact or it will drive you crazy because you cannot police the unbelievable volume of videos that YouTube hosts. You have the right to disagree with anyone but you don't have the right to infringe on anyone else's point of view.
Its been said several times in this thread "You must be responsible for your own safety", this is something you NEVER delegate to anyone for any reason. I have been telling both of my daughters this since they were old enough to comprehend a sentence. You should automatically know when you lack the necessary knowledge or skills to perform a particular action, if not you are bound to make mistakes and some of them will probably be very serious.
As your friend and host I ask everyone to please keep the conversation friendly so this thread can remain open for everyone to participate and hopefully learn something valuable.
Last edited by Keith Outten; 03-11-2018 at 12:56 PM.
Member
I'm not sure I see the point in this kind of post. I don't know if you're just trying to be funny, or if you honestly believe that everyone who suffers a table saw injury just didn't bother to not want to touch a spinning blade.
Contributor
Clearly everyone who is injured by a spinning saw blade simply did not heed rule #1: "Thou shalt not touch spinning saw blades."
"Anything seems possible when you don't know what you're doing."
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