"Absolute wealth of techniques in this video for any project."

[Brian Holcombe]

Edwin,

Martin posted a video not long ago on making a cabinet door. I noticed the shop is super clean, well lit, proper dust collection, proper guarding, correctly functioning machines, clear passageways and safe procedures.

I’m certain that did not all come together by accident.

The point these guys are making and how I interpret it is that safety starts with getting your head in the game and being aware of what’s going on. I didn’t see anyone suggesting to remove the guarding, simply stating that they have in some circumstances and would like not to be condemned for it.

There has been long conversations on this board about SUVamatic and Aigner and it is mainly led by professionals.

[Edwin Santos]

Hi,
At the risk of geeking out on safety, in response to Pat's suggestion, I'd like to present two technique I use to keep my hands further away from the spinning blade when cutting a small part like the guy was doing in the video on his table saw with a small sled.

Photo 1 shows a small part being held with my hands, this is what I choose not to do and do not recommend to others (although I understand many pull it off successfully every day).
Photo 2 is what I do most of the time which is a stick holder shaped at the end with some sandpaper glued on for grip. The key to this technique is the other block which has to be larger than the piece you're cutting, so the pressure will be levered at the tip of the stick where you want it. This technique creates a kind of vise and is surprisingly strong. I use it at the miter saw all the time.
Photo 3 is what I do if the stick will not work which is to use a fat pencil with the eraser tip as an 11th finger to hold the workpiece. These fat pencils are what they give kids in kindergarten when they are learning how to write. I keep one with a magnet at every cutting machine where it's always handy. Incidentally, I don't have a Sawstop but it occurs to me that the metal ferrule on the pencil could trip it if it were struck. To avoid this I would maybe fashion an alternative with no metal.

I hope these ideas are constructive for someone. I'd like to think there is very little additional time (as in none) taken for utilizing these precautions in exchange for greater safety odds. There are lots of other methods, and I hope to learn some here if others are posted. If you disagree, go ahead, but please resist mocking me and preserve what little self-esteem the house full of women here have left me.
Edwin

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[Marshall Harrison]

Most YouTube videos are created by people who are interested in showing their techniques to others. They are not intended to be training videos. You have to accept this as fact or it will drive you crazy because you cannot police the unbelievable volume of videos that YouTube hosts. You have the right to disagree with anyone but you don't have the right to infringe on anyone else's point of view.

Its been said several times in this thread "You must be responsible for your own safety", this is something you NEVER delegate to anyone for any reason. I have been telling both of my daughters this since they were old enough to comprehend a sentence. You should automatically know when you lack the necessary knowledge or skills to perform a particular action, if not you are bound to make mistakes and some of them will probably be very serious.

As your friend and host I ask everyone to please keep the conversation friendly so this thread can remain open for everyone to participate and hopefully learn something valuable.

I can agree. But the salient point here is that when newbies recognize that they turn to Youtube to lear how to do it and can easily pick the wrong person to learn from. How can we as a community prevent that? Do we have a responsibility to "look out for" those newbies?

[Edwin Santos]

Edwin,

Martin posted a video not long ago on making a cabinet door. I noticed the shop is super clean, well lit, proper dust collection, proper guarding, correctly functioning machines, clear passageways and safe procedures.

I’m certain that did not all come together by accident.

The point these guys are making and how I interpret it is that safety starts with getting your head in the game and being aware of what’s going on. I didn’t see anyone suggesting to remove the guarding, simply stating that they have in some circumstances and would like not to be condemned for it.

There has been long conversations on this board about SUVamatic and Aigner and it is mainly led by professionals.

Brian, just to be clear, I'm a big fan of Martin and always perk up and pay attention to his posts.
In fact, there are only a handful here for whom I might be guilty of being a bigger fanboy, and you're one.

Edwin,

[Brian Holcombe]

Brian, just to be clear, I'm a big fan of Martin and always perk up and pay attention to his posts.
In fact, there are only a handful here for whom I might be guilty of being a bigger fanboy, and you're one.

Edwin,

Thanks Edwin, much appreciated.

In any case, I appreciate your having taken the leap with photos and documentation on your approach with crosscutting small parts. I dont use a table saw, so I'll leave others to comment.

I'll likely do the same for my jointer later today and possibly bandsaw.

I'm a bit of a safety nut, personally. I raced cars and saw a few really horrible but preventable accidents and so when I was able to put theory to practice I added many things to my race car that actually I like for the workshop as well. One of them 'the big red button'. Or the 'oh-no' button. I gained a reflex racing which was that if I hear something wrong; kill the motor and investigate. Same for the workshop; hear something kill the machine and investigate.

[Frederick Skelly]

Hi,
At the risk of geeking out on safety, in response to Pat's suggestion, I'd like to present two technique I use to keep my hands further away from the spinning blade when cutting a small part like the guy was doing in the video on his table saw with a small sled.

Photo 1 shows a small part being held with my hands, this is what I choose not to do and do not recommend to others.
Photo 2 is what I do most of the time which is a stick holder shaped at the end with some sandpaper glued on for grip. The key to this technique is the other block which has to be larger than the piece you're cutting, so the pressure will be levered at the tip of the stick where you want it. This technique creates a kind of vise and is surprisingly strong. I use it at the miter saw all the time.
Photo 3 is what I do if the stick will not work which is to use a fat pencil with the eraser tip as an 11th finger to hold the workpiece. These fat pencils are what they give kids in kindergarten when they are learning how to write. I keep one with a magnet at every cutting machine where it's always handy. Incidentally, I don't have a Sawstop but it occurs to me that the metal ferrule on the pencil could trip it if it were struck. To avoid this I would maybe fashion an alternative with no metal.

I hope these ideas are constructive for someone. I'd like to think there is very little additional time (as in none) taken for utilizing these precautions in exchange for greater safety odds. There are lots of other methods, and I hope to learn some here if others are posted. If you disagree, go ahead, but please resist mocking me and preserve what little self-esteem the house full of women here have left me.

Thanks Edwin. I didn't know of this technique, but it sure looks safer to me. It reminds me of the "10 million dollar Stick" I bought recently and find useful.

I'd add a 4th option to making the cut your pictures show: use a hand saw, like a Dozuki or a Backsaw. For me, that works very well. For others, YMMV.

Fred

[andy bessette]

...Photo 3 is what I do if the stick will not work which is to use a fat pencil with the eraser tip as an 11th finger to hold the workpiece...
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That looks much more dangerous to me than the method shown in the first photo, as the workpiece is not being held firmly enough. I would never recommend this, especially to a beginner.

[brent stanley]

I'm frankly surprised at how long these discussions go on. I think people need to think more about statistics, probability, risk and human nature and not be so inclined to throw out general ideas because they have an example of where the generality doesn't work. There are occasions where people survive falling out of airplanes without parachutes, but I don't think that should be used as support for any argument that parachutes are for wussy, safety nutbars.

We all know there are plenty of examples of people using tablesaws without incident with no guards, and employing subpar techniques just like people die in their late 90's from being hit by a truck even though they smoked a pack a day since they were 14. We need to understand that both human beings and wood are not perfect, nor are they perfectly predictable. In order to be able to accurately predict a future event (or a non-event), every aspect of the situation has to be 100% known and predictable. In the act of cutting a piece of wood on a tablesaw, the wood is not 100% known or predictable, the human is not 100% predictable either especially when you consider the huge variety of outside influences that may unpredictably affect the person. All the training and experience in the world will NOT make a human, inhumanly perfect.....I don't care how awesome you think you are. Additional guarding and better techniques are there to deal with anything that may happen from imperfections in wood, training and humans.

So where does that leave us? Well, there is information available out there to people that shows them how to mill wood to the same specs as produced in the video with much safer techniques. It won't be 100% safe we should remind people, but safer is something some people may like. The unfortunate thing is, people do not know what they do not know, and newbies may look at techniques employed by someone who appears very experienced and assume they are safe techniques. That's just they way people are. So I know a lot of people just say "It's their own stupid fault for not training themselves properly! Serves them right for cutting their fingers off! I don't want to change what I do to babysit idiots!". And while I get that, I also think it would be unfortunate if people hurt themselves even if it's a product of their own ignorance. Look at the big picture...these are probably good people with families and indifference to their being hurt is just not cool especially when the answer is really easy. So, if you want to make a video showing imperfect techniques, why not just mention they are not perfect and link to the videos out there that show proper techniques or alternative approaches to the same milling job? How hard is that I rhetorically ask? I really don't care what choices people make as long as they are informed decisions, and I think it's a small effort to point people towards better information.

My 2 cents,

B

[Martin Wasner]

No. But how about the simple practice of never touching the blade while it is spinning?

Even while not spinning is a good plan. I sliced the crap out of my thumb buffing out the top of my dado saw a few weeks ago. Stupid is, as stupid does.

[Glen Gunderson]

I always like Sam Maloof's approach when demonstrating technique to other woodworkers. He knew some of his methods (particularly his free hand shaping on the bandsaw) were dangerous. He made it clear that he started doing it when he didn't know any better, that is was a potentially dangerous method of work, but that he still used it because he felt he was experienced and skilled enough to do it and it was the best way to handle the job. He showed a technique, outlined the dangers, and cautioned others to consider other methods to achieve the same goal.

I think more people making instructional material for money (which is essentially what people making YouTube videos are doing) would do well to follow his example and his self awareness.

[Mark Hennebury]

I'm frankly surprised at how long these discussions go on. I think people need to think more about statistics, probability, risk and human nature and not be so inclined to throw out general ideas because they have an example of where the generality doesn't work. There are occasions where people survive falling out of airplanes without parachutes, but I don't think that should be used as support for any argument that parachutes are for wussy, safety nutbars.

We all know there are plenty of examples of people using tablesaws without incident with no guards, and employing subpar techniques just like people die in their late 90's from being hit by a truck even though they smoked a pack a day since they were 14. We need to understand that both human beings and wood are not perfect, nor are they perfectly predictable. In order to be able to accurately predict a future event (or a non-event), every aspect of the situation has to be 100% known and predictable. In the act of cutting a piece of wood on a tablesaw, the wood is not 100% known or predictable, the human is not 100% predictable either especially when you consider the huge variety of outside influences that may unpredictably affect the person. All the training and experience in the world will NOT make a human, inhumanly perfect.....I don't care how awesome you think you are. Additional guarding and better techniques are there to deal with anything that may happen from imperfections in wood, training and humans.

So where does that leave us? Well, there is information available out there to people that shows them how to mill wood to the same specs as produced in the video with much safer techniques. It won't be 100% safe we should remind people, but safer is something some people may like. The unfortunate thing is, people do not know what they do not know, and newbies may look at techniques employed by someone who appears very experienced and assume they are safe techniques. That's just they way people are. So I know a lot of people just say "It's their own stupid fault for not training themselves properly! Serves them right for cutting their fingers off! I don't want to change what I do to babysit idiots!". And while I get that, I also think it would be unfortunate if people hurt themselves even if it's a product of their own ignorance. Look at the big picture...these are probably good people with families and indifference to their being hurt is just not cool especially when the answer is really easy. So, if you want to make a video showing imperfect techniques, why not just mention they are not perfect and link to the videos out there that show proper techniques or alternative approaches to the same milling job? How hard is that I rhetorically ask? I really don't care what choices people make as long as they are informed decisions, and I think it's a small effort to point people towards better information.

My 2 cents,

B

First of all the argument was never about people saying safety apparatus was for wussy, safety nutbars, quite the opposite it was about the defense of a man who was vilified for showing how he did work, because it wasn't deemed safe, by certain people.

I have been told many times in many ways during this thread that I simply don’t understand that repeating an operation x number of times without injury does not make it a “safe” operation. I beg to differ, that means that it is safe, to me.
Am I to assume that by the same “logic” that repeating a “safe” operation x number of times and getting injured each time does not mean that it is unsafe?

This logic is foreign to me.

I think people should forget about statistics and probability and think about safety operations in terms of an acceptable level of risk matched to their own level of knowledge, skill and comfort. Because after all its your fingers.

How is one to determine what is “safe” for you if not by the outcome?
I evaluate the operation and potential concerns, develop a method that I feel comfortable, and test the operation, I would make any adjustments to my process if I perceived any weakness.
Nothing is 100% safe, I work in a dangerous environment, I take calculated risks, I accept that, I am comfortable with the odds.
There are many variables, and the odds would be different for different people doing the same operation. Each must work within their own limits at any particular time in life.

If you want disclaimers on all videos, Like "don't try this at home its dangerous" I don't see any harm in that but i also don't believe that it will save anyone either. Woodworking is dangerous.

[andy bessette]

MH--good post.

[Lee Schierer]

I have been told many times in many ways during this thread that I simple don’t understand that repeating an operation x number of times without injury does not make it a “safe” operation. I beg to differ, that means that it is safe, to me.

The point you are missing is that it "appears to be safe for you" just because you've never been injured doing it that way. That doesn't make it safe. The closer your fingers or any other body part get to a moving cutting edge, the less safe it is. Have you ever sneezed unexpectedly? Have you ever flinched from a loud sound nearby? Any of those could cause a normally safe procedure by you or anyone else to become unsafe.

Wood is not a uniform material. There are hard and soft spots and even embedded debris. I've personally cut through BB's and bullets that were completely embedded in the piece of wood I was working on. With lead shot that generally is not a problem; however there is a lot of steel shot out there now which could prove disastrous when cutting with carbide blades.

You've probably never had a carbide tooth come off a blade and hit you. I have. It was a 1 in a bazillion occurrence yet it happened. There were guards in place, yet this piece of carbide found a way out of the guard and manage to hit me in the throat. The piece of wood I was cutting was quite uniform, i.e. no knots, sap pockets, wavy grain etc. The blade was fairly new and I don't recall banging it at any time. Fortunately, I wasn't seriously injured, just a minor cut.

We have people with all levels of experience reading the posts here and we need to always be aware that not everyone has our level of experience nor the quality of the tools we might own when describing how to do an operation safely.

[andy bessette]

... The closer your fingers or any other body part get to a moving cutting edge, the less safe it is...

This is simply false logic.

[Mark Hennebury]

The point you are missing is that it "appears to be safe for you" just because you've never been injured doing it that way. That doesn't make it safe. The closer your fingers or any other body part get to a moving cutting edge, the less safe it is. Have you ever sneezed unexpectedly? Have you ever flinched from a loud sound nearby? Any of those could cause a normally safe procedure by you or anyone else to become unsafe.

Wood is not a uniform material. There are hard and soft spots and even embedded debris. I've personally cut through BB's and bullets that were completely embedded in the piece of wood I was working on. With lead shot that generally is not a problem; however there is a lot of steel shot out there now which could prove disastrous when cutting with carbide blades.

You've probably never had a carbide tooth come off a blade and hit you. I have. It was a 1 in a bazillion occurrence yet it happened. There were guards in place, yet this piece of carbide found a way out of the guard and manage to hit me in the throat. The piece of wood I was cutting was quite uniform, i.e. no knots, sap pockets, wavy grain etc. The blade was fairly new and I don't recall banging it at any time. Fortunately, I wasn't seriously injured, just a minor cut.

We have people with all levels of experience reading the posts here and we need to always be aware that not everyone has our level of experience nor the quality of the tools we might own when describing how to do an operation safely.

Hi Lee,

If you spend enough time in the workshop you will be exposed to many accidents and occurrences. I have cut through a few stange objects including bullets.
I was in a friends shop once when he was ripping a piece of 1" maple when zap, for no apparent reason a carbide tooth struck him in the lip. It was a weird thing to happen and seemed without any explanation.

I have spent more time in the hospital getting crap dug out of my eyes, even though i wear safety glasses, crap still gets in.
I have had grinding wheels explode, and bandsaw blades break, and a thickness planer head exploded on me once.Lots of crap happens in the shop.
The closest i came to an accident on the jointer was in someones else's shop when a guy walking by the outfeed table of the jointer unexpectedly grabbed a board that i was dressing and pulled it, "to help me".

I don't believe that anything is "safe" that is a relative term based on many variables some unknown to us.
I work within my comfort level.
Woodworking, like most things in life involves risk.


Evaluating the risk and working within the boundaries of your skill, knowledge and comfort level is unique to each individual, and covers a wide range.

As people progress in other aspects of life, they do in woodworking; some people play sports, reach a certain level and coast for the rest of their lives comfortable at that level,
others push on to develop into Olympic athletes and do incredible feats, they take much bigger risks and face the much higher levels of danger, but they do it with a higher level of skill, knowledge, experience and comfort.
The risks are bigger, and the potential injuries for catastrophic failure are also, but so is their ability to avoid such disaster.
None of us would condemn an Olympic athlete call them reckless, or morons, yet it is obvious that they are on the edge, doing things that are extremely dangerous and scary as hell to most of us.

What is so different with woodworking?
Woodworking is dangerous because doing it can result in injury.
There are various levels of danger, as there are various levels of skill, knowledge, experience and comfort within those limits.
Some are comfortable with their fingers 4” from the blade others ¼” and they don’t break a sweat.
It is not dangerous because of proximity, It is only dangerous when you exceed your limit.

Calling someone reckless implies they are ignorant, of the dangers, inexperienced and don’t care about their safety; I seriously doubt that most experienced woodworkers fall into this category.

Some woodworkers push on, they gain knowledge and experience and take bigger risks and operate with more comfort, confidence and control in more dangerous situations.
It is obvious that there is a wide variety of levels in woodworking, operations that appear scary to one are quite normal to another.
Much can be learned from observation and rational discussion of all levels and methods of work.

I don't know that you can expect an olympic ski jumper to be responsible for an amateur trying things above their skill level. What is more usual i would guess is that an amateur will be inspired to learn.