"Absolute wealth of techniques in this video for any project."

[Dave Zellers]

It would not occur to me to perform heart surgery after watching a few videos.

Oh come on. How hard could it be?

[Mark Hennebury]

Accepting responsibility for someone else’s safety is a pretty tall order.

Back in the 80’s probably taught way over 400 adults students in night classes at my shop.
Most of the courses were 8 weeks 1 night a week for 3 hours. 8 people per class.
Some of the classes were intro course about wood structure and hand tools, tuning up handplanes etc.
Some classes were projects.

I had two people that got injured and had to go to hospital;
One slit his thumb open with a chisel and required stitches.
One stuck two fingers into a spinning blade and had to get them amputated. His little finger and the one next to it.

Have you ever tried to watch eight or ten adults in a workshop using machinery.
Not an easy task.

I had two extra people in the shop that night they had doubled up from another class to get their projects finished.
The class was split into two groups based on what parts they were working on.
One group I set up to cut stopped dados.
The stock was 1 ¾” square pine.
Two different lengths 18” and 36”
The dado was ¼” wide x ½” deep stopped about an inch from each end.
The machine was like a mini table saw it had a 3 wing slot cutter router bit that would cut a ¼” wide slot in the stock.
There was a long fence set to center the cut.
There were two sets of stops clamped to the fence, one set for the short length stock, one set for the long.
I demonstrated how to execute the cut, by placing the end of your stock against the table, fence and end stop, then lower the other end carefully onto the blade until the stock was flat on the table , then sliding across to the other stop and lifting.
A fairly straight forward operation.
I got them started, then went to the other group to set them up on their task.
The first group finished and moved on to another job, I was dealing with the second group, when the accident happened.
One of the first group had forgotten to do two of his short pieces, and went back to do them, but the short stops had been removed and just the long stops were there. He decided to not bother putting the short stops back and just do it by eye.
He told me that he did it and ran the two slot without stops and got away with it, but went back again to make the slot closer to the end, and when he laid the stock over the cutter he pushed it the way that the cuter was spinning, and right near the end of the stock, with one hand on the end.
The cutter grabbed the stock and shot it out, his fingers went into the cutter and got chopped up.
The surgeon said that he mangled one and cut the tendon of the little finger, so it was better to remove both as the little finger wouldn’t operate anyway.

So do you expect me to predict what people may do? That is a big responsibility to put on someone.
After the fact is no problem.
It is tough to watch one person, but in a shop class with 10 adults all working on different things, and people talking to you, it’s impossible.
You have no idea of what people will really understand or what they might do.
What do you hope to achieve by putting a 10 second disclaimer on a 15 minute video.
Woodworking used to be a profession where people had apprenticeships and were trained.
Now my Grandmother (if she were alive) could go into home depot and buy a table saw, and she couldn’t even read the instruction.
I understand that we live in an age of diminished responsibility, where cars will tell you if you are wandering out of the lane, and park themselves etc.. but this is a slippery slope.
It has been proven that people concentrate less when they expect someone or something else is watching out for them.
If you expect your saw to stop when you put your hand into it…..you will put your hand into it, I guarantee it.
You better just hope that your mind makes the adjustment for your bandsaw.

[brent stanley]

Accepting responsibility for someone else’s safety is a pretty tall order.

Pretty sure nobody's suggested that YouTube video producers do that. As you've said yourself the entirety of "someone's safety" is a combination of many factors so silly to think that simply providing better information in a YouTube video would be equivalent to "accepting responsibility for someone else's safety". That's a bit melodramatic. But what you did confirm is what many have been saying for a while now....there are many things hard to predict in the woodworking world. This supports the idea that more guarding and better techniques are good ideas. Demonstrating them in videos costs nothing, doesn't hurt anyone and (because humans are human) may well prevent injury. No harm done at worst, at best prevent injury.....why the fuss?

[Marshall Harrison]

Accepting responsibility for someone else’s safety is a pretty tall order.

Back in the 80’s probably taught way over 400 adults students in night classes at my shop.
Most of the courses were 8 weeks 1 night a week for 3 hours. 8 people per class.
Some of the classes were intro course about wood structure and hand tools, tuning up handplanes etc.
Some classes were projects.

I had two people that got injured and had to go to hospital;
One slit his thumb open with a chisel and required stitches.
One stuck two fingers into a spinning blade and had to get them amputated. His little finger and the one next to it.

Have you ever tried to watch eight or ten adults in a workshop using machinery.
Not an easy task.

I had two extra people in the shop that night they had doubled up from another class to get their projects finished.
The class was split into two groups based on what parts they were working on.
One group I set up to cut stopped dados.
The stock was 1 ¾” square pine.
Two different lengths 18” and 36”
The dado was ¼” wide x ½” deep stopped about an inch from each end.
The machine was like a mini table saw it had a 3 wing slot cutter router bit that would cut a ¼” wide slot in the stock.
There was a long fence set to center the cut.
There were two sets of stops clamped to the fence, one set for the short length stock, one set for the long.
I demonstrated how to execute the cut, by placing the end of your stock against the table, fence and end stop, then lower the other end carefully onto the blade until the stock was flat on the table , then sliding across to the other stop and lifting.
A fairly straight forward operation.
I got them started, then went to the other group to set them up on their task.
The first group finished and moved on to another job, I was dealing with the second group, when the accident happened.
One of the first group had forgotten to do two of his short pieces, and went back to do them, but the short stops had been removed and just the long stops were there. He decided to not bother putting the short stops back and just do it by eye.
He told me that he did it and ran the two slot without stops and got away with it, but went back again to make the slot closer to the end, and when he laid the stock over the cutter he pushed it the way that the cuter was spinning, and right near the end of the stock, with one hand on the end.
The cutter grabbed the stock and shot it out, his fingers went into the cutter and got chopped up.
The surgeon said that he mangled one and cut the tendon of the little finger, so it was better to remove both as the little finger wouldn’t operate anyway.

So do you expect me to predict what people may do? That is a big responsibility to put on someone.
After the fact is no problem.
It is tough to watch one person, but in a shop class with 10 adults all working on different things, and people talking to you, it’s impossible.
You have no idea of what people will really understand or what they might do.
What do you hope to achieve by putting a 10 second disclaimer on a 15 minute video.
Woodworking used to be a profession where people had apprenticeships and were trained.
Now my Grandmother (if she were alive) could go into home depot and buy a table saw, and she couldn’t even read the instruction.
I understand that we live in an age of diminished responsibility, where cars will tell you if you are wandering out of the lane, and park themselves etc.. but this is a slippery slope.
It has been proven that people concentrate less when they expect someone or something else is watching out for them.
If you expect your saw to stop when you put your hand into it…..you will put your hand into it, I guarantee it.
You better just hope that your mind makes the adjustment for your bandsaw.

Mark, you taught him the right way and he took a shortcut to save time. Not your fault. But this is what I've been saying all along. Take on the responsibility of showing the safe way as you did and then its out of your (or our) hands. If you had shown him to do a climb cut with his hand near the end close to the router blade then you would have been doing something irresponsible as he would have had no way to know that that method could be dangerous.

[Glen Gunderson]

I don't know, to me cutting a double stopped groove on a narrow 18" long piece of wood by lowering it onto and raising it from a spinning cutter while (presumably) not using push blocks is a pretty dangerous operation, stops or no stops. Gravity is working against you and your hands are guaranteed to be right over the blade pretty much the whole time while you're awkwardly trying to lower and lift a small workpiece.

Doing it horizontally on a router table is easier, safer, faster, and will produce a better cut. Since you're not lowering and raising the workpiece you can use push blocks the whole way and if you want you can even have a guard on top of the bit in case something goes wrong.

[brent stanley]

I don't know, to me cutting a double stopped groove on a narrow 18" long piece of wood by lowering it onto and raising it from a spinning cutter while (presumably) not using push blocks is a pretty dangerous operation, stops or no stops. Gravity is working against you and your hands are guaranteed to be right over the blade pretty much the whole time while you're awkwardly trying to lower and lift a small workpiece.

Doing it horizontally on a router table is easier, safer, faster, and will produce a better cut. Since you're not lowering and raising the workpiece you can use push blocks the whole way and if you want you can even have a guard on top of the bit in case something goes wrong.

May well not have been chip limiting tooling either which could reduce the magnitude of injuries should they happen. Makes it less grabby too. Wonder what the rpm of the table saw is vs. what the router bit was designed for? Good job for a router table or gluing up three pieces of wood to leave the stopped groove.

[Mark Hennebury]

I don't know, to me cutting a double stopped groove on a narrow 18" long piece of wood by lowering it onto and raising it from a spinning cutter while (presumably) not using push blocks is a pretty dangerous operation, stops or no stops. Gravity is working against you and your hands are guaranteed to be right over the blade pretty much the whole time while you're awkwardly trying to lower and lift a small workpiece.

Doing it horizontally on a router table is easier, safer, faster, and will produce a better cut. Since you're not lowering and raising the workpiece you can use push blocks the whole way and if you want you can even have a guard on top of the bit in case something goes wrong.

The only difference is either you lower the stock vertically the half inch or you push it horizontally . You still rely on the stops. You can use the same fences and pushsticks on either setup, the resulting cut quality and speed are identical.

[mreza Salav]

Accepting responsibility for someone else’s safety is a pretty tall order.

Back in the 80’s probably taught way over 400 adults students in night classes at my shop.
Most of the courses were 8 weeks 1 night a week for 3 hours. 8 people per class.
Some of the classes were intro course about wood structure and hand tools, tuning up handplanes etc.
Some classes were projects.

I had two people that got injured and had to go to hospital;
One slit his thumb open with a chisel and required stitches.
One stuck two fingers into a spinning blade and had to get them amputated. His little finger and the one next to it.

Have you ever tried to watch eight or ten adults in a workshop using machinery.
Not an easy task.

I had two extra people in the shop that night they had doubled up from another class to get their projects finished.
The class was split into two groups based on what parts they were working on.
One group I set up to cut stopped dados.
The stock was 1 ¾” square pine.
Two different lengths 18” and 36”
The dado was ¼” wide x ½” deep stopped about an inch from each end.
The machine was like a mini table saw it had a 3 wing slot cutter router bit that would cut a ¼” wide slot in the stock.
There was a long fence set to center the cut.
There were two sets of stops clamped to the fence, one set for the short length stock, one set for the long.
I demonstrated how to execute the cut, by placing the end of your stock against the table, fence and end stop, then lower the other end carefully onto the blade until the stock was flat on the table , then sliding across to the other stop and lifting.
A fairly straight forward operation.
I got them started, then went to the other group to set them up on their task.
The first group finished and moved on to another job, I was dealing with the second group, when the accident happened.
One of the first group had forgotten to do two of his short pieces, and went back to do them, but the short stops had been removed and just the long stops were there. He decided to not bother putting the short stops back and just do it by eye.
He told me that he did it and ran the two slot without stops and got away with it, but went back again to make the slot closer to the end, and when he laid the stock over the cutter he pushed it the way that the cuter was spinning, and right near the end of the stock, with one hand on the end.
The cutter grabbed the stock and shot it out, his fingers went into the cutter and got chopped up.
The surgeon said that he mangled one and cut the tendon of the little finger, so it was better to remove both as the little finger wouldn’t operate anyway.

So do you expect me to predict what people may do? That is a big responsibility to put on someone.
After the fact is no problem.
It is tough to watch one person, but in a shop class with 10 adults all working on different things, and people talking to you, it’s impossible.
You have no idea of what people will really understand or what they might do.
What do you hope to achieve by putting a 10 second disclaimer on a 15 minute video.
Woodworking used to be a profession where people had apprenticeships and were trained.
Now my Grandmother (if she were alive) could go into home depot and buy a table saw, and she couldn’t even read the instruction.
I understand that we live in an age of diminished responsibility, where cars will tell you if you are wandering out of the lane, and park themselves etc.. but this is a slippery slope.
It has been proven that people concentrate less when they expect someone or something else is watching out for them.
If you expect your saw to stop when you put your hand into it…..you will put your hand into it, I guarantee it.
You better just hope that your mind makes the adjustment for your bandsaw.

Excuse me Mark, but that was a tricky and not so "straight forward" operation you set some "learners" up to do. I personally would not get people who are just learning do this operation the way you describe even if I might feel comfortable to do it myself after doing it countless many times. For this particular operation (with small pieces) I suggest them to use a slot-cutter on router table and will have a jig to hold the small piece. Hands are away from the two ends of the piece being cut and should never come close to the cutter.
People who are just starting don't know many things that can go wrong, did they know the danger of climb cutting? You can certainly not predict all things people might do but they should also be aware of possible dangers in an operation if they are told to do such things. It is like holding the hands of a guy blind folded to walk in a maze and asking him to repeat it without telling him all the possible consequences of a wrong step.

[Mark Hennebury]

I never said that it was a table saw.

[brent stanley]

I never said that it was a table saw.

Sorry Mark I see that now....it was LIKE a table saw. Presumably it could be run at the speed recommended by the manufacturer of the router bit?

[Steve Demuth]

A last (from me) summary thought about this thread - which I have thoroughly enjoyed, BTW.

I think that it is good for people to have the desire, skills and opportunity to make things, and make them well. I see a lot of value in youtube as a channel for learning as people engage in this activities. I deeply appreciate the time experts put into making good youtube channels and videos to engage in this teaching. The best of them are very well produced, highly enjoyable, and a great source of learning. Since I want "hobby" woodworking to be something people can grow in through exposure to other's techniques, they are a wonderful public service.

But I think there is an obligation on the part of the teachers in this enterprise to teach appropriate and safe techniques.

When I criticized this video in this context, it was entirely within that amateur context. I don't expect professionals are primarily learning how to run their shops through these videos, and my experience with the pros I know is that they actually care and pay MORE attention to safety for themselves and their employees than relatively inexperienced amateurs. The "clamps" video that started this makes that point nicely - I don't know any, and can't imagine any, professional "production" woodworker who would pay a second's attention to a build process that creates an inferior version of a widely available product using a process with hundreds of steps, and which requires hand control of tiny bits of wood in close proximity to spinning saw blades. Highly expert artisan woodworkers might use some similar techniques, although I'd be surprised to find many. Artisans care - a lot - about keeping all their fingers.

I totally understand that some will get their back up a bit when anyone appears to be telling them how to do things. Think about the context though. Would you teach those techniques?

[brent stanley]

The only difference is either you lower the stock vertically the half inch or you push it horizontally . You still rely on the stops. You can use the same fences and pushsticks on either setup, the resulting cut quality and speed are identical.

Except I assume it's required to ease the component into the blade at the start, not just drop it on? I can imagine how one might ease it down with elaborate holders for the component, but typically this is done by holding with the fingers. Done horizontally it can easily be eased into the cutter with push blocks. If it was a large component you might be able to hold it safely with one hand and ease it down, but with smaller components of course you're digits end up close to the blade.

[Mark Hennebury]

Mreza , we are all learners at different points on a line. The people that chose to take project classes were adults and not blind. The reason they took the course was to learn, I showed them to the best of my ability how to do the jobs safely. The ones that did as I showed them were safe. Climb cutting and the correct feed direction was explained to them. The one that got injured disregarded my instructions and setup. No different than a student of yours disregarding you telling him to use your jig,

[Mark Hennebury]

You don't have to have your fingers that close to the blade at all. You can have your fingers four or five inches from the covered blade.

[Bill Carey]

"SPEECHLESS"

My favorite part is that he is wearing a dust mask. Can't be too safe!