"Absolute wealth of techniques in this video for any project."

[Tony Joyce]

Woodworkers like myself work safely regardless of your opinion. we take measures to mitigate the risks, regardless of your opinion, those are facts. That's why we can work for years in high risk situations with minimum of injuries.
What we deserve is a little respect.

How true. I don't engage in lots of discussions, because I'm tired of being talked down to.

[Martin Wasner]

I don't engage in lots of discussions, because I'm tired of being talked down to.

I'm pretty sure that's why so many of the professionals have came and went over the years here. We need our own sandbox. Woodweb has the worst format for a forum

[Peter Kelly]

It's worked great since 1998. Why mess with perfection.

[peter gagliardi]

Mark, I wholeheartedly agree with you, on all points.
I certainly haven't found a pro forum besides woodweb myself, and I just found it about a year ago.

[Simon MacGowen]

How true. I don't engage in lots of discussions, because I'm tired of being talked down to.

I despise any bullying or disrespectful remarks in any forums. I don't talk down to anyone in any of my posts (which anyone can examine in case of doubt), but I look down on any posts (even if I am not part of them) which use insulting or uncivil words like stupid, foolish, etc. I believe it is a moderator's job to delete insulting posts and I have seen that done here and in other forums.

Heated debates, discussions and arguments based on reasons, logic and facts are totally fine to me. Stay away from the kitchen if you find it hot.

The most meaningless posts are those from one member chasing after another just because the threads are made by a particular member. I've seen that happen. I laugh at the chasers, because they take things too seriously in the Internet.

Sarcasms? Fine, as long as if you are also fine with being the receiving end. You can't just throw a sarcasm at someone and expect everyone else can't do the same to you.

Finally, being talked down to? Is it a matter of confidence? I am confident of my skills and work, just like many of you expressing your views in this particular thread are. Anyone is free to disagree with what I said, but I never take or feel anyone's objections being me talked down to. Voicing your opinions in any forums is not a contest to win, but to share what you'd like to share. You should defend for yourself, your views and your work. If you ever feel being talked down to, don't go away, stand your ground and reason with them.

The last place I would like to spend time on is where it is a herd of sheep and I feel I can only follow the herd regardless of where it is heading. You can find such phenomenons in some blogs where the blog followers will agree with EVERYTHING the blog owners say.

Simon

[brent stanley]

I despise any bullying or disrespectful remarks in any forums. I don't talk down to anyone in any of my posts (which anyone can examine in case of doubt), but I look down on any posts (even if I am not part of them) which use insulting or uncivil words like stupid, foolish, etc. I believe it is a moderator's job to delete insulting posts and I have seen that done here and in other forums.

Heated debates, discussions and arguments based on reasons, logic and facts are totally fine to me. Stay away from the kitchen if you find it hot.

The most meaningless posts are those from one member chasing after another just because the threads are made by a particular member. I've seen that happen. I laugh at the chasers, because they take things too seriously in the Internet.

Sarcasms? Fine, as long as if you are also fine with being the receiving end. You can't just throw a sarcasm at someone and expect everyone else can't do the same to you.

Finally, being talked down to? Is it a matter of confidence? I am confident of my skills and work, just like many of you expressing your views in this particular thread are. Anyone is free to disagree with what I said, but I never take or feel anyone's objections being me talked down to. Voicing your opinions in any forums is not a contest to win, but to share what you'd like to share. You should defend for yourself, your views and your work. If you ever feel being talked down to, don't go away, stand your ground and reason with them.

The last place I would like to spend time on is where it is a herd of sheep and I feel I can only follow the herd regardless of where it is heading. You can find such phenomenons in some blogs where the blog followers will agree with EVERYTHING the blog owners say.

Simon

I appreciate this post and I think it's all fair.

I will add though that some of the comments on and about the chap in the video were less than productive, and while I can appreciate the sympathy others who place themselves in the same category as him have for him, I'm not comfortable with any assertion that the attitude is uni directional. I make my living with my tools but choose to work to a higher level of safety than some, and I will say there's a regular onslaught of ridicule, condescension and fun making levelled at me in forums, youtube, instagram and in person from professionals who make it clear they think I'm foolish to spend the time working with guards, buying safer tooling, taking the time to set up the power feeder for one cut etc. It's constant, and I don't like working around a lot of "pros" now because I have to listen to them sigh and roll their eyes because I insist on putting a guard back on etc etc etc. I've had similar discussions with many people so I know it's not just me....and I also know it's not all "pros".

So while I agree those people who are extra safe shouldn't go attack those who make different safety decisions, I'm not comfortable with any thinly veiled assertion that the reciprocal doesn't happen too.

[andrew whicker]

I was helping someone make a thing this Sunday. I was ripping some poplar and they thought it would be useful to start pulling the wood as it was leaving the blade. I just said 'no' and they stopped. Haha, that made me nervous for a brief second.

Last night I was ripping some walnut to width. I had like a 1/16" to an 1/8" scrap and boom, some piece of that scrap just whipped me right in the face. Never had that happen before. Safety glasses are nice.

I used to do track days on motorcycles. I used to do a lot of trad climbing. Safety equipment is nice, but using your brain mostly separates the injured from the non-injured. After your initial learning period of course. The learning curve part is usually brain + dumb luck.

[Harold Balzonia]

This thread is great!

I gather from reading this that most of the folks here would never use a straight razor to shave with.... it makes me realize that just about every sharpening video ends with some guy (ALWAYS, a guy) taking a razor sharp blade to his forearm.... I've never seen a warning against this practice. What if a wasp fell out of the guy's rafters? What if he sneezes? What if there's an earthquake? Or lightning strike? Oh the humanity!!!!! Since when is taking a plane blade to your forearm "safe?"

one of my good friends is a stunt driver in Hollywood. He's driven more miles SIDEWAYS than most people have going forward. His car control is unbelievable. What if a deer comes bounding out of the woods when he's filming a pursuit? What if he sneezes? What if a wasp flies in his visor?

some people are just more skilled than others. It's a fact of life. The more skill you have, the more "risk" you can take. The guy in the video has great skill with his tools. If that isn't apparent to any newbie, then that newbie probably ought to return his table saw and pick up a new hobby.

[Steve Demuth]

No i would no let a 15 year old as you suggest, anymore than you would let a 15 year old do open heart surgery. There are plenty of surgery videos, do they all give safety warnings to 15 years old not to try this at home?

Mark,

I think there is a difference, that is important to what those of us criticizing the video (which is what I am doing - I am not criticizing professional woodworkers with experience with their tools making judgments about safety in their own shop, despite what some in this thread seem to believe) are saying.

The video is pretty explicitly a "how to" video aimed by an amateur or hobby woodworker (if those looked like professional tools in a professional shop to you, I'd be surprised) at other amateur or hobby woodworkers. He's speaking to people without preofessional experience and knowledge, and showing things that put that group of people at risk of injury, or which are just plain wrong (I doubt you can find any professional woodworker who will tell you ripping a cupped board the way he does is good practice). We produce surgical videos where I work. They are different for several reasons: 1) They are explicitly used to train professional surgeons, 2) they do only show "best practice," and 3) even when shared with lay people, it is with the explicit social and legal understanding that you have to have an MD degree, and a surgical certification to perform surgery. They never make a claim to be "how to" for amateurs or hobby surgeons.

[brent stanley]

Mark,

I think there is a difference, that is important to what those of us criticizing the video (which is what I am doing - I am not criticizing professional woodworkers with experience with their tools making judgments about safety in their own shop, despite what some in this thread seem to believe) are saying.

The video is pretty explicitly a "how to" video aimed by an amateur or hobby woodworker (if those looked like professional tools in a professional shop to you, I'd be surprised) at other amateur or hobby woodworkers. He's speaking to people without preofessional experience and knowledge, and showing things that put that group of people at risk if injury, or which are just plain wrong (I doubt you can find any professional woodworker who will tell you ripping a cupped board the way he does is good practice). We produce surgical videos where I work. They are different for several reasons: 1) They are explicitly used to train professional surgeons, 2) they do only show "best practice," and 3) even when shared with lay people, it is with the explicit social and legal understanding that you have to have an MD degree, and a surgical certification to perform surgery. They never make a claim to be "how to" for amateurs or hobby surgeons.

Exactly Steve, not only is the pinnacle of safety demonstrated, but also the audience is clearly understood and can safely be assumed.

[Mark Hennebury]

Responsibility is a complex issue that goes far beyond woodworking into every aspects of our lives.

Since the beginning of time, human existence has been based on influence: religion, politics, advertising, sports, entertainment etc.
Humans are tribal, and join groups, gangs, sides.
A single human unknown to anyone and in total isolation will not influence anyone or be influenced by anyone.
Put a few together and they influence each other, for better or worse.
Who decides what influences are okay, and how far your responsibility goes.

Personal Responsibility:
As a child your parents have a responsibility to protect you, teach you values and independence, to be able to make your own decisions.
As an adult, you must find your own way and make up your own mind and you must navigate all of the influences on you on a regular daily basis.

I understand that you want to save people from injuring themselves and think that woodworkers should say that woodworking is dangerous on every video that they make.
Do you think that would make any difference?
Do you want to see them grade the danger on a scale of 1-10 maybe? How would people know what the levels actually meant or what level they were at, woodworking is unregulated ungraded, you could pick 100 woodworkers each with 10 years experience and they will all have a different level of knowledge, skill, ability and ideas about the right way to do anything? It’s a bit of a jungle. It would be nice if we were all trained the same and all had the same knowledge, but we don’t.
Do you want private video channels for different skill levels where you cannot watch stuff that you are not qualified to do.
Would that apply to all other things in life, like movies. How many kids have been injured trying skateboarding tricks that they have seen others do, the list is endless.

I have taught hundreds of woodworking classes and I have tried to teach people to understand, wood, tools, tool geometry, referencing and machining, so that they may understand the basic principles and make informed decisions. With that knowledge they can observe and analyze and learn the rest on their own. That is how I have viewed my responsibility to woodworking.

When I was a teenager in the early 70’s I saw a movie called “Little Fauss and big Halsey” it was a movie about motocross racing, I went to the bike shop the next day and ordered the biggest pro race bike they had listed, my first motor bike was a Yamaha SC 500, I could easily have been killed riding that, who’s responsibility was it, the actors, the producer, the cinema that showed the film, the shop that sold the bike to me , the laws that let them, Yamaha, the laws that let me ride it. my parents or mine.
Everything influences everyone, and telling someone not to do stuff won’t stop them trying.
Adults need to be accountable for their own actions, and it is their responsibility to educate themselves before they attempt something new. There simply is no excuse for ignorance in the age of information, where you can research and crosscheck anything from your cellphone. Either way you will get your education it just depends if you want to learn through research or recuperation.



Little Fauss.jpgpost-156154-0-92681200-1393687453.jpg

[Brian Holcombe]

I feel similarly, as someone who has machinery I feel that it is my responsibility to learn about proper use. I do this for every unfamiliar machine and every unfamiliar operation, and occasionally find ways to improve upon the familiar operations for safety, quality and output.

[brent stanley]

I feel similarly, as someone who has machinery I feel that it is my responsibility to learn about proper use. I do this for every unfamiliar machine and every unfamiliar operation, and occasionally find ways to improve upon the familiar operations for safety, quality and output.

The problem is, there's no real gold standard that everyone knows about to compare to so as to ensure they've got the best instructions. It's completely logical therefore to go to the experts to see what they do....after all they're the experts for pete's sake! I mean if you want to know how to rebuild an automatic transmission and want to know all the tips and tricks to do a really good job, do you talk to someone who's done it once and botched it? No, you go to an expert. Someone who works in the field all the time and produces transmissions with a new lease on life. It's reasonable to think they're the ones who will give you the best instructions because they have a history of doing a good job. So in this case you can go talk to the expert......but you should basically ignore them and go take a mechanic's course and then proceed? Or wait...who knows where that logic trains stops....maybe you shouldn't trust the mechanic's course either because they're experts too....and maybe you should teach yourself from scratch how to do everything. Boy....sure would take a long time to get anything done.

People look to the experts in our field just like every other field out there. It's not very often people learn everything on their own as it would be immensely inefficient. Very often people see how experts do things and assume it's as safe as can be.....that's just the way it is. People may argue they SHOULDN'T do that and should go to some other unstated source in order to meet their responsibilities, but the fact is they do. People SHOULDN'T want to beak into my house and steal my stuff, BUT THEY DO so I lock the doors. People SHOULDN'T hack your computer BUT THEY DO so we have firewalls. Arguing for not helping people because of SHOULDs and SHOULDN'Ts instead of dealing with the reality of what IS, is a weak argument. Especially when it takes no effort to do better.

[Brian Holcombe]

OK, the machines come with manuals. The manuals describe basic safe procedure.

Beyond that you need to learn about things, how wood reacts to being cut, how to flatten, etc, etc. These are things that you can research and understand. Expecting a 'how to' list of everything and anything is going to be asking a lot. To expect that an expert is an expert and is then responsible for your actions if they give you advice is asking far too much. You do not need to be an expert yourself to judge the quality of information, nor do you need to qualified to release information, so reader/viewer beware.

I raced cars enough so that I was on two racing teams and worked as a fabricator. Do you think all of the experts have the same info? Do they provide the same info? Not at all. You ask professional and successful racers how they're seated in the car, how they race, how their engines are setup and most often the information will be a little different person to person and a lot different at times. That is the meat and potatoes of this discussion, two camps of experts with completely different approach and opinion to the same goal.

[peter gagliardi]

Either way you will get your education it just depends if you want to learn through research or recuperation.

About the most quotable quote I have read in years!