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Thread: "Absolute wealth of techniques in this video for any project."

  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hennebury View Post
    The only difference is either you lower the stock vertically the half inch or you push it horizontally . You still rely on the stops. You can use the same fences and pushsticks on either setup, the resulting cut quality and speed are identical.
    Mark, not sure I am following your method here but I think you are using the back stop and easing the stock into the cutter? If so I disagree that is a safe method and still prone to kick back. Experienced hands can get away with it most of the time but not a good method for beginners.

    The safest way to do this on a shaper is to make sure the stock is resting front and back on the fence and stop before easing into the cutter. It can be done on a table saw but a little more awkward.

    This picture is from a German shop I visited last year. You can see he rested the front of the piece against the fence while easing the back in using the wide backstop.
    B06331B0-952E-4649-A57D-C6745D2695B4.jpg

    We use use the same method in our shaper workshops for beginners. These cuts can be a little tense if not used to shapers and I have them use a push stick sometimes depending on the workpiece size. Both photos using Aigner accessories but the same can be accomplished with shop made fixtures.
    A544EB5E-CD37-45D6-8A97-7318A9AE6EE3.jpg

  2. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Calhoon View Post
    Mark, not sure I am following your method here but I think you are using the back stop and easing the stock into the cutter? If so I disagree that is a safe method and still prone to kick back. Experienced hands can get away with it most of the time but not a good method for beginners.

    The safest way to do this on a shaper is to make sure the stock is resting front and back on the fence and stop before easing into the cutter. It can be done on a table saw but a little more awkward.

    This picture is from a German shop I visited last year. You can see he rested the front of the piece against the fence while easing the back in using the wide backstop.
    B06331B0-952E-4649-A57D-C6745D2695B4.jpg

    We use use the same method in our shaper workshops for beginners. These cuts can be a little tense if not used to shapers and I have them use a push stick sometimes depending on the workpiece size. Both photos using Aigner accessories but the same can be accomplished with shop made fixtures.
    A544EB5E-CD37-45D6-8A97-7318A9AE6EE3.jpg
    Interesting Joe, so effectively the near-end of the piece is actually drug along the front face of the large backstop? I've always set the piece on the near-end stop first and slowly eased the far end into the cutter but it's always been with longer pieces such that I could grab a fist full of the stock and easily control the rate it entered the cutter. When it's smaller, that left hand would be too close to the cutter to get a solid grip so this would be better. Constant pressure with the left hand, ease it in with the right hand. Cool, thanks.

    B

  3. #153
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    Hi Joe,


    Every thing that you do in the workshop is dangerous to some degree.
    The only things that are not dangerous are things that are done by an automatic machine or done by someone else.
    If you want to arbitrarily assign a level of danger on a scale of 1-10 what then is an acceptable level on that scale.
    Is your posted method 100 % safe? or where on the scale would you rate it? Who should be the one to decide?

    Explain to me how anyone could have got injured using my method.

    It cannot kickback when starting the cut. It is firmly registered against the stop, table and fence. It cannot go anywhere so how is is "dangerous"
    My method, at the worst will only pull the stock flat to the table.
    Your method uses a table, a fence, and stops. My method used a table, a fence and stops, and eases the stock into the cutter.
    There is, for all intents and purposes no difference at all in your method and my method.

    My students were hobbiest students and i showed operations with the kind of equipment that they would have at home, most did not have $30,000 shapers in their basements with $10,000 worth of Aigner fences and accessories.

    My methods worked fine and were "safe" within reason, decided by me. I was the one teaching so i made decisions to the best of my ability, no one ever got hurt using the methods that i taught.

    You could have developed a 100 % safe method and it would not have changed the outcome of this incident because the student ( a full grown adult man in his 40's) did not use the prescribed method.

    if all of your methods were better than mine it would not have changed the results for any of the 400 plus students that i taught.

    My classes were hobby classes I had usually 8 people to a class, various ages, various skills and abilities, and comprehension level, i had them for a total of 24 hours. To teach them how to do woodwork, use and understand machinery, and complete a project.

  4. #154
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    Probably didn't lose them on a jointer though. All of us probably occasionally do something which isn't safe, just to get something done quickly or for many other reasons (none of them reasonable). It really is just a matter of time. Even with safe practices things happen that we don't expect. Doing what this guy does in his video just increases the possibility that something bad will happen. Who needs that? More to the point, people who don't know anything about safe practices see the video and think this guy is an "expert". At that point, unsafe practices are passed on to new generations of woodworkers and used until something bad happens to them, or worse, to someone they taught the unsafe practices. I hope this guy, and none of the people who don't follow safe practices never have a finger cut off or some serious injury. Regardless of how safe I am, I still count myself as lucky that nothing causing a permanent injury to my body has happened in over 40 years of woodworking. I still think about it whenever I use a table saw, bandsaw, router, router table, jointer, planer, a chisel, a hand plane, a drill press, a lathe, and even a sander. I only hope that, some day, I don't forget to do one thing that causes an injury.

  5. #155
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    I don't know guys, it is just YouTube. Why would you assume that anyone posting a video is competent at the craft, or competent at teaching their craft? I love watching YouTube videos, but I never assume that any of these guys are competent. I am always trying to learn, but I try to avoid blindly accepting things as being true.

  6. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob Mac View Post
    I don't know guys, it is just YouTube. Why would you assume that anyone posting a video is competent at the craft, or competent at teaching their craft? I love watching YouTube videos, but I never assume that any of these guys are competent. I am always trying to learn, but I try to avoid blindly accepting things as being true.
    I think you're wise, and I do things the same way, but it's human nature to refer to the experts about how to do things, because who other than the experts would know best? This chap is a well known, YouTube woodworking personality and I think because of how human nature is, it's not a foolish idea to think there may be some social responsibility to say "this isn't the safest way to do this. Click on the link below for material that describes alternate, safer ways to produce this component." It costs nothing, takes no effort, hurts nobody and may save some digits because humans are just humans......so I say why not?

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hennebury View Post
    Hi Joe,


    Every thing that you do in the workshop is dangerous to some degree.
    The only things that are not dangerous are things that are done by an automatic machine or done by someone else.
    If you want to arbitrarily assign a level of danger on a scale of 1-10 what then is an acceptable level on that scale.
    Is your posted method 100 % safe? or where on the scale would you rate it? Who should be the one to decide?

    Explain to me how anyone could have got injured using my method.

    It cannot kickback when starting the cut. It is firmly registered against the stop, table and fence. It cannot go anywhere so how is is "dangerous"
    My method, at the worst will only pull the stock flat to the table.
    Your method uses a table, a fence, and stops. My method used a table, a fence and stops, and eases the stock into the cutter.
    There is, for all intents and purposes no difference at all in your method and my method.

    My students were hobbiest students and i showed operations with the kind of equipment that they would have at home, most did not have $30,000 shapers in their basements with $10,000 worth of Aigner fences and accessories.

    My methods worked fine and were "safe" within reason, decided by me. I was the one teaching so i made decisions to the best of my ability, no one ever got hurt using the methods that i taught.

    You could have developed a 100 % safe method and it would not have changed the outcome of this incident because the student ( a full grown adult man in his 40's) did not use the prescribed method.

    if all of your methods were better than mine it would not have changed the results for any of the 400 plus students that i taught.

    My classes were hobby classes I had usually 8 people to a class, various ages, various skills and abilities, and comprehension level, i had them for a total of 24 hours. To teach them how to do woodwork, use and understand machinery, and complete a project.
    Mark,
    Everything in the workshop can be dangerous even automated machines and there is no foolproof method for any methods. I was only pointing out a safer way to do what you described, especially for inexperienced woodworkers. I believe if you try it you would feel the difference in the support of the workpiece.


    Yes, I have a well equipped work shop and will not apologize for that. As I mentioned all the Aigner gear can be shop duplicated. Here are a couple examples.
    22DC2EE1-0A3D-463D-ABFB-42FA64949B2F.jpg
    1D2CDC4B-7D79-4E59-825C-F4555A8BBF06.jpg
    I take workshop saftey seriously and also realize it takes personal responsibility of the individual. My positive take on the debated video in this thread is that I can show a better, safer method to do every operation he shows. Nothing is foolproof but certainly his methods can be improved upon greatly with no loss in productivity.
    Last edited by Prashun Patel; 03-16-2018 at 2:06 PM. Reason: removed inflammatory language

  8. #158
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    Joe you made a couple of statements one about the method that I used , you said that you disagreed that it was safe and said that it was prone to kickback and not a good method for beginners, I asked you to explain. l believe that is a fair request.


    I had a few nice machines also, I was just explaining my reason for the choice of equipment in the classes.

  9. #159
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    Joe I joined this discussion to debate some issues . I have made statements and offered opinions and I have defended my position to the best of my abilty when it was questioned. That is what I believe a good healthy debate is about.
    You joined in the discussion and made statements that my teaching methods were not safe, and that yours were the safest.
    Those statements reflect directly on my reputation, and I have a right to ask you to back them up. By what method did you determine those positions, are they facts or are they simply your opinion passed off as facts? You have said that I put my students in danger and I want you to explain that.

  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hennebury View Post
    Joe you made a couple of statements one about the method that I used , you said that you disagreed that it was safe and said that it was prone to kickback and not a good method for beginners, I asked you to explain. l believe that is a fair request.


    I had a few nice machines also, I was just explaining my reason for the choice of equipment in the classes.
    Mark,
    i used your method many years without incident, but it is prone to kickback. All I am saying is that a better safer method is to support the workpiece at both ends that way you can control the entry into the cutter in a manner less prone to grabbing. This method also makes for a cleaner entry with less chance of burning.
    I am traveling at the moment or could illustrate this better with pictures from my shop.

    This may help explain.

    https://www.bghm.de/fileadmin/user_u...esmaschine.pdf

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hennebury View Post
    One stuck two fingers into a spinning blade and had to get them amputated. His little finger and the one next to it.

    Have you ever tried to watch eight or ten adults in a workshop using machinery.
    Not an easy task.

    I had two extra people in the shop that night they had doubled up from another class to get their projects finished.
    The class was split into two groups based on what parts they were working on.
    One group I set up to cut stopped dados.
    The stock was 1 ¾” square pine.
    Two different lengths 18” and 36”
    The dado was ¼” wide x ½” deep stopped about an inch from each end.
    The machine was like a mini table saw it had a 3 wing slot cutter router bit that would cut a ¼” wide slot in the stock.
    There was a long fence set to center the cut.
    There were two sets of stops clamped to the fence, one set for the short length stock, one set for the long.

    I demonstrated how to execute the cut, by placing the end of your stock against the table, fence and end stop, then lower the other end carefully onto the blade until the stock was flat on the table , then sliding across to the other stop and lifting.
    A fairly straight forward operation.
    I got them started, then went to the other group to set them up on their task.
    The first group finished and moved on to another job, I was dealing with the second group, when the accident happened.
    One of the first group had forgotten to do two of his short pieces, and went back to do them, but the short stops had been removed and just the long stops were there. He decided to not bother putting the short stops back and just do it by eye.
    He told me that he did it and ran the two slot without stops and got away with it, but went back again to make the slot closer to the end, and when he laid the stock over the cutter he pushed it the way that the cuter was spinning, and right near the end of the stock, with one hand on the end.
    The cutter grabbed the stock and shot it out, his fingers went into the cutter and got chopped up.
    The surgeon said that he mangled one and cut the tendon of the little finger, so it was better to remove both as the little finger wouldn’t operate anyway.

    So do you expect me to predict what people may do? That is a big responsibility to put on someone.
    After the fact is no problem.
    It is tough to watch one person, but in a shop class with 10 adults all working on different things, and people talking to you, it’s impossible.
    You have no idea of what people will really understand or what they might do.
    What do you hope to achieve by putting a 10 second disclaimer on a 15 minute video.
    Woodworking used to be a profession where people had apprenticeships and were trained.
    This sounds like a very dangerous method to create a stopped dado in a very narrow piece of material. There must have been other, better methods available to make this dado, for example, a router table with a straight or spiral bit?? If not, maybe a better project for the folks to learn on?

  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Calhoon View Post
    Mark,
    i used your method many years without incident, but it is prone to kickback. All I am saying is that a better safer method is to support the workpiece at both ends that way you can control the entry into the cutter in a manner less prone to grabbing. This method also makes for a cleaner entry with less chance of burning.
    I am traveling at the moment or could illustrate this better with pictures from my shop.

    This may help explain.

    https://www.bghm.de/fileadmin/user_u...esmaschine.pdf
    I would like you to explain to me how this can kickback. The stock is firmly registered against a stop, a fence and a table, and held with two hands and eased onto the blade. How exactly can it go back? It can go only one way and that is down to the table covering the blade. It is 1/4" cutter in 2x2 pine.
    slot.jpg

    This i understand is the " safest" method as you have explained it.

    slot2.jpg

  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pat Barry View Post
    This sounds like a very dangerous method to create a stopped dado in a very narrow piece of material. There must have been other, better methods available to make this dado, for example, a router table with a straight or spiral bit?? If not, maybe a better project for the folks to learn on?
    Please explain in what way it is very dangerous; please describe the danger, what will happen and how will it occur? Then please describe in detail your safe method with the router table and straight or spiral bit.

  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hennebury View Post
    I would like you to explain to me how this can kickback. The stock is firmly registered against a stop, a fence and a table, and held with two hands and eased onto the blade. How exactly can it go back? It can go only one way and that is down to the table covering the blade. It is 1/4" cutter in 2x2 pine.
    slot.jpg

    This i understand is the " safest" method as you have explained it.

    slot2.jpg
    Mark,
    thank you for illustrating that. Yes the top method is safe most of the time and most likely you will never have issues especially with small cuts. If the cutter grabs it will slam the material against the fence and if your stop holds no problem. The UK safety standards actually show the top method in their publications. My argument is just that the bottom method is safer especially when it comes to larger cuts.

    These pictures show putting the stopped groove for a spring balance in a double hung sash. This is where the top method could get dangerous. This is a fairly large cut. Something like 3/4” wide X 7/8” deep. With the bottom method you can ease into the cut with no grabbing.
    A40EEE94-6708-454A-A102-B0C00C5AD54F.jpg
    1C13F491-24A0-44A4-8909-613CB7E20BCF.jpg
    0935CE53-25E0-4F92-8D52-01B335BFCAF3.jpg

  15. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Calhoon View Post
    Mark,
    thank you for illustrating that. Yes the top method is safe most of the time and most likely you will never have issues especially with small cuts. If the cutter grabs it will slam the material against the fence and if your stop holds no problem. The UK safety standards actually show the top method in their publications. My argument is just that the bottom method is safer especially when it comes to larger cuts.
    Thank you Joe,
    I have always the utmost respect for you and your opinions, I now have more.

    Mark Hennebury

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