Greetings - Making Frames by hand woodworking.

[Bob Britton]

Thank you, Jim.

I need to rebuild my shooting board. That link alone shows some great ideas to make it ambidextrous.

BTW...I love your small wood bench. My spring project is to make one. I am embarrassed to say I am using an old butcher block kitchen table today. I don't have much room in my garage, but that bench you are using in the video looks to be the perfect setup for my workspace!

[Nicholas Lawrence]

I did try to make a shooting board and bought a Stanley low-angle hand plane from Rockler. That was a mistake right there. Sorry to be blunt, but that plane was just a piece of junk. the tightening screen would not lock the blade in place and the blade kept moving on me, swiveling. Again, welcome to the modern world of cheap mfg and cheap alloys and such.

That's what started me down the path towards looking at antique planes when planes used to be made of iron and steel!

Most of my planes are antiques. I have read comments about the new Stanley line needing work before they are usable. What is allowing the blade to move? Is the lower screw bottoming out before it gets tight? If so, you could try using a grinder to shorten the screw a very little so that it will tighten. You may need to clean up the end of the threads afterwards with a little sandpaper or a small file.

Not trying to get in an argument over modern manufacturing quality, but since you already bought it (and assuming you did not return it) perhaps there is a way to get it working. Others who own that plane or a similar may have other suggestions.

[Bob Britton]

The screw, while appearing to be brass, seems more like some other alloy, would not stay tightened. When the plane was pushing a shaving, it would loosen and twist the blade out of position.

I called the Rockler guys about two weeks after I got it and they said it was typical of Stanley's "lower end" planes, and that their "higher end planes" are made better. I never pushed the issue, and just determined to look for planes made before mass manufacturing (offshore). I'll try to look up the model # when I get home. Maybe something can be done.

I started looking at Lie Nielson afterwards, but I'm not prepared to mortgage my house to go down that path, though I do look upon their products with a bit of envy. But I've done enough research to know that there are some real solid quality planes from companies like Stanley from back in the day when quality mattered. I suppose if I had wealth, I'd probably buy a series of Lie Nielsons, but at this point I'm still exploring whether hand tools is going to be a craft that I am going to be able to pick up. I'm just looking to get decent tools that will be requisite for doing the fundamental frames / moldings I plan on doing. Who knows...if I really get into it, I may make a real investment.

The one antique plane I did restore...it was kind of fun. These old planes have a lot of life in them, and just need some TLC. Sure, some are so worn and the metal deeply pitted that they'd be beyond my ability to restore. But if you look past the dust and a bit of the surface oxidation, there's some beauties lurking underneath with a lot of use left in them.

Right now, I"m on the hunt for a Stanley #45 or #55. The Lie Nelson combination plane looks great. But at $400 for the base device with one blade, and a total price of over $1200 to get the equivalent set of the Stanley #45/#55, I just don't have that amount of money.

Been haunting ebay for the last couple of days trying to find a #45/#55 set. Patience, grass-hopper!

[Jim Koepke]

I started looking at Lie Nielson afterwards, but I'm not prepared to mortgage my house to go down that path

[edit]

Right now, I"m on the hunt for a Stanley #45 or #55.

It is usually against my better judgement to suggest a beginner to purchase a #55 as their first combination plane. Usually a #45 is enough of a brain twister to get to work that many give up before long. A common feeling among many who do use both is the #45 is a kind of trainer to master before moving on to the #55.

For doing fancier work though the #55 will be in your future if you do decide to make your own more complex frames.

As far as your low angle Stanley block plane pictures are very helpful or at least a link to a listing of the actual plane to help others asses what the problem may be and how to address correcting the situation. Some of my planes have screws which like yours have a tendency to rotate during use. Depending on the situation they have usually been corrected by different means. Some will hold with a small O-ring under the screw head. Others with a lock washer or a fabricated washer made from sand paper. With sand paper it sometimes helps to fold the sheet so there is abrasive on both sides of the washer. There are also speciality lock washers available to work in countersunk holes. Another 'trick' is to use a ny-lock type of washer. Some nuts used in high vibration environments have nylon inserts in the nut to help dampen vibrations and to keep things from turning. If something like this can be added to prevent turning you might have a correction for an otherwise unusable plane.

If you do look for an older used block plane you may want to focus on something like a Stanley #65 series. They are wider than the #60 series. Before getting a low angle jack plane a #65-1/2 was my preferred shooting board plane.

On the question of the LN or LV low angle jack planes they are both very good at retaining their value. Most folks who have been there and done that have reported getting back 80% or better on their investment. Folks who sell overseas often receive more than the original price due to how Import or Value Added Taxes in some countries on imports effect new items differently than used items. Buying a used item at higher than the new price can save them even more by not having to pay taxes.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

Been haunting ebay for the last couple of days trying to find a #45/#55 set. Patience, grass-hopper!

Here are a couple of posts you may want to check:

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread....al-Wisdom-quot

My post on the Stanley #45 is #11 in the thread if your viewing is set up for 'Linear Oldest First.' It is focused on general information of the Stanley #45 as a 'speciality plane.'

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread....gs-to-Look-For

This is post #27 in this thread. It is focused more on the things one should be aware of when purchasing a #45. There are a few missing parts that do not matter, but there are others that are critical to good performance.

jtk

[Stan Calow]

Bob, I too use a miter trimmer for frames, but my biggest change was to stop using my miter saw (chop saw) to cut the initial 45s. Its too inaccurate, rough, and difficult to control for small pieces. I got a Nobex miter saw (quiet, hand powered) for that purpose and its very handy for cleanly trimming all sorts of small parts.

To be honest, for frames that have profiles the least bit complicated, I think its more cost effective to buy commercial pre-made framing stock by the foot and start there.

[Pat Barry]

Bob, I too use a miter trimmer for frames, but my biggest change was to stop using my miter saw (chop saw) to cut the initial 45s. Its too inaccurate, rough, and difficult to control for small pieces. I got a Nobex miter saw (quiet, hand powered) for that purpose and its very handy for cleanly trimming all sorts of small parts.

To be honest, for frames that have profiles the least bit complicated, I think its more cost effective to buy commercial pre-made framing stock by the foot and start there.

I would use my Delta 10" compound miter saw to do the basic cuts. With a fine pitch blade and a zero clearance backer it does a great job and I get clean cuts. The nice thing I can do with it is re-trim a small amount off to get the length correct - try that with a hand powered saw. I agree though, that some sort of shooting technque or dedicated trimmer will give the best joint fit, after all the miter saw is a carpentry tool, not for fine woodworking.

[Bob Britton]

Hi Stan. Thanks. I have Omega Moldings and a couple other suppliers to turn to for pre-made moldings.

My thought RE: Plein Air frames / Cassetta style frames is that they're really very simple: Just a wide groove, with two raised edges. how those edges are finished (bead, reed, hand-carved, etc.) is really straight forward. The basic molding really does not have much form to it.

One thing for sure, with my predicament, is that it's primarily trying to use the wrong tools for the job, and some basic lack of know-how on my part and practice. As you say, in learning what I have learned, it is stunning to see how inaccurate my power tools are. But if you a contractor doing rough in work (framing houses, etc.), they get the job done. For accurate cutting...no.

I was looking at an old-fashioned Stanley Miter box that was recommended in this very old frame making how to book I found. I think they recommended a Stanley 2246. Today, there's the Stanley 20-800, but the reviews I've read basically confirm my general views on modern day manufacturing: poor quality.

But I think FWIW getting a Miter trimmer might be the better investment. Like I said, I can get a miter to roughly 45.1 to 45.4 degrees (according to my digital angle measure), and I think if I can either figure out how to finish it with a shooting board and low angle plane, or a Miter trimmer is probably the way to go. From what I'm reading here, and watching on youtube, it seems as if it's naive to think one can cut an accurate 45 in one chop. One first seems to make a rough 45, then finish it (low-angle plane/shooting board or miter trimmer).

My experience in making my first shooting board and trying to use a Stanley 65 bought from Rockler was not a good experience because the blade on that Stanley kept slipping and wouldn't stay in place. Another poster (Jim Koepke) mentioned that perhaps I need to revisit that plane and try some of the suggestions on how to get the blade to stay put.

I'm just a novice, I have read and watched, but to be honest, I'm not able to achieve something as simple as four lengths of molding, mitered 45, and splined or half-lapped together. All my life, I've been able to learn things and to figure stuff out. It has been eye-opening to learn that making a picture frame requires the right tools and skills. It is something I genuinely appreciate and something I genuinely want to learn how to craft, if anything to gain the knowledge and sense of achievement.

But really, my hope is that I can make some basic plein-air frames, custom carved with unique etchings, and designs, and then to finish them (gilding) and putting my art in them. This so far has been the journey of about a year of p/t effort to try to figure out. And I know at this point it is my lack of tools that are essential, and some competency in the craft. I know it's attainable, but I'm trying to accomplish something my heart wants so badly to achieve. I never would have thought that cutting a 45 and making a frame would be such a challenge. There's clearly a requisite skill needed.

I have this frame I made, I call it my "Franken-frame" (after Frankenstein.) I came so close. the 45 degree miters were close, though off by ~.1 to ~.3 degrees each. When I assembled it, and glued it in place, you could see the cumulative effect of the inaccurate miters. But I made my own wood putty and filled it in. Didn't look bad. Then, I learned how weak glueing end grain is. So I tried making a corner spline. When I tried fitting in the spline, the piece of wood I was using was too think, got stuck half way in. I coudn't get it out, and tried tapping it in (mistake) and it just got lodged permanently in there. I used a flush saw to trim the excess off. It was a comedy of errors. So my thinking is this:

1. can I get the skill and tools needed to make an accurate 45 miter.

2. can I then ensure that I can cut those miters on four pieces, where the lengths of the boards are exact, so that when fitting together the four-pieces of the frames, it fits together accurately with no gap. Right now, if those pieces aren't trimmed to exact lengths, it will skew the fitting together of the four moldings.

3. Can I make a rabbet (rebate) for the canvas panel to fit in (yes, know how to do this now). No biggie.

4. Can I figure out how to do some basic corner joinery (miter spline, half-lap) or at least default to using a biscuit cutter and biscuit to give the corners some strength. I think I can do this part, at least with a biscuit.

5. Can I make a decorative bead and carve the raised portion of the plein air frame. Yes, without a doubt. This isn't my problem.

And then can I finish the frame...that's a whole non-woodworking skill that I've yet to get into, but I've learned enough about gilding (24 carat, or mica imitation leaf) to know that I should be able to do that.

As an artist, sometimes they say that putting a 24 carat, closed corner, water gilded frame on a poor quality painting is like putting lipstick on a pig. (Not that I think my paintings are pigs). But the more positive way to understand what I'm trying to achieve is that putting a quality gilded frame on a piece of art enriches the painting and can enhance the value of the art to prospective purchasers.

If money weren't an issue, and I was wealthy and selling my art for $10-$20 per sq. inch like many decent artists do today, I would pay to have professional framers supply my frames. But when I can barely sell an 18" x 24" painting for $400, I cannot afford to put a $1000 hand-crafted frame on it.

Maybe in the end, I will learn that I do not have the capacity or skill to learn the craft of frame making. I'd like to learn it because, as I said earlier, many arts & crafts style artists designed (and some made them by themselves) custom frames to support their artwork. I think that would be a lot of fun.

What's really driving this, for me, is that my step dad, who's got cancer, gave me the circular saw, router table, and some old basic hand tools to me. I made a painting for him. But he asked me to make him a frame for him for that painting. So before he passes (stage four lymphoma being treated with chemo), I'm hoping to at least honor my promise and commitment to him to make a hand-crafted frame. I don't think he expects a professional frame. But I do want to give him a frame that fits, that doesn't have wide gaps showing in the corners, and one that doesn't fall apart because the miters don't hold. The painting I did for him is here
It's of some wood ducks. I have an idea of trying to carve some cattails up the vertical sides of the frames, and maybe carve a Cross in the bottom center, then gilding it. Anyways, this is what is driving my push: to create a personalized frame for him as he requested.

I know I have learned a lot so far. I think I need to close the gap on the 45 degree miters, and the joinery. I've got much of the other aspects (the finishing work) pretty much covered.

[Jim Koepke]

1. can I get the skill and tools needed to make an accurate 45 miter.

2. can I then ensure that I can cut those miters on four pieces, where the lengths of the boards are exact, so that when fitting together the four-pieces of the frames, it fits together accurately with no gap. Right now, if those pieces aren't trimmed to exact lengths, it will skew the fitting together of the four moldings.

One of my problems when beginning to work wood was in trying to get accurate measurements. At one point it struck me that the best way to get pieces to go together properly wasn't in measuring them but by comparing them. Now when multiple pieces have to be the same size they are compared to each other. Finger tips can detect very small differences.

Having a mitered end being off by one tenth of a degree is fine if the one mating to it is also off by a tenth of a degree the other way.

Sometimes one has to finesse the miter a little on the shooting board. With a little practice one picks up the subtleties of how much to shim or finagle the workpiece. A good plane with a sharp blade set for a light cut will get you there.

jtk

[Brian Holcombe]

[Michael Todrin]

I agree with Brian that this is not a casual undertaking to build mouldings that are as good as your paintings. If you would rather spend your time painting but still have some ability to customize frames, have a non-Neander solution for you: you could buy a custom profile shaper cutter and have your local mill shop make your speacial frame mouldings. You could then buy a mitre guillotine and you could make your own frames with only a small time and monetary investment.

If you want to go down the path of woodworking glory and make your own mouldings and frames it will certainly be rewarding, but you might not have as much time to paint.

[Stew Denton]

Bob,

This may not be what you are interested in, but....when I was a young man I worked in a couple of different lumber yards. (The old fashioned kind with bulk nails, a small office/store area that had: woodworking, carpentry, electrical, concrete, and other types of tools as well as hardware for construction, etc. You drove into the lumber yard between the lumber buildings and could drive right up to the lumber bin you were interested in

In both yards we had collections of mill work samples that the various mill work outfits made. These were typically on a small light weight bead chain, so you could look at the examples and order the mill work from the outfit. Many of these were for picture frames, etc. Some were small and ornate, maybe only 1/2" to 3/4" wide and 1/8" thick, and could be glued (along with others) onto a basic molding to make a fairly ornate and complex picture frame blank to cut, trim, and glue up into a picture frame.

Lumber yards, the smaller old fashioned kind, probably still have such mill work samples. Reputable mill work shops will sell you such mill work, and typically each stick will be very nearly perfect. You can then use your shooting boards, planes, chisels, etc. to make the picture frame using the high quality molding made by the mill work company. The big box outfits MIGHT have such, but I doubt it.

This is a quick way to get results.

However, to start with, I would go to a lumber yard and buy something like 1/4" X 1.5" molding. Something simple and relatively inexpensive to practice on. It could also be built up by glue ups, as mentioned earlier, or profiled with beads by using a Stanley 45, etc. By doing this, you start with a piece of trim that is straight, flat, and often has grain that can be easy to work with.

With regard to block planes, I like the old Stanley planes, not that they are any better than say the Millers Falls or any other good tool maker, but there are a lot of the old Stanley planes out there, and because of that there is a lot of information on the various models of block planes Stanley made, but be warned, Stanley made a lot of different models of block planes.

One of the best sites will show up if you do a search for "blood and Gore Stanley Planes." Again, be forewarned about that site, as he takes a somewhat dim view that Stanley made so many models of block planes, but the information on each and every model is very good and extremely knowledgeable. You will learn a lot about which models are suitable for your work. On many models of Stanley Block Planes, he will tell you places to check on the plane, to look for faults or cracks that often show up on particular models. This sort of this is invaluable infromation.

With regard to price, there are a lot of old Stanley (and other brands) of block planes out there, and you should be able to find one in good shape for not much money. You want a low angle block plane that has an adjustable throat that can be opened and closed to regulate the amount of opening of the mouth in front of the iron. Go to Antique shops, flea markets, etc. I have paid as little as $5 to $10 for a decent old Stanley, and as little as $20 for one that needed virtually NO restoration for it to be a very good user, and for $20 it even looked pretty good with almost no clean up. They may cost a bit more up there, but look on that auction site on the net for Stanley block planes under the "Sold" heading and look only at the "Auction" sold planes to see what people ACTUALLY sold them for, not the ridiculous amount someone was asking for on the "buy it now" option.

A good OLDER Stanley low angle block plane might be just what you need for a shooting board sized for picture frames.

Regards,

Stew

[Bob Britton]

Thank you, Stew. Some really good advice.

I've been hunting for a Stanley #45. Paul Sellers said they should be able to be had used for about $50. But the ones I'm finding on eBay and Craigslist are $300 for some really poor quality ones, or $600 for those that appear to be in working order.

I really think that is the plane I need to have in my Kit. Maybe a #55. But I'm heeding the advise of others and trying to start with the #45 and learning, then perhaps moving up to a #55.

I may also look at the idea you have of getting pre-manufactured chained/beeded stock and gluing it on. I was watching some videos on doing beads/reeds. Looks like a great thing to be able to learn. But again it comes down to having the tool for the job.

[Stew Denton]

Bob,

A price of $300 to $600 for a Stanley 45 is just plain nuts. That is the kind of price you see for a Stanley 55.

You see folks ask ridiculous prices on Ebay on the "buy it now" option. Go to the "Sold" section and look at the "auction" choice to see what people have actually been paying for one. Time after time I see people either putting up and initial bid price or a "buy it now" price that is totally out of reason, but then again they normally don't sell for that price, you see the same item at that price for months. That money is the kind of money that Stanley 55 planes sell for.

I just went to that auction site "sold" listing for auctions and saw a number of good user grade 45s for a bit over $100, and a small number for less. There were also collectors grade planes that the prices were very high on....leave those to the collectors, don't try to outbid them. Trouble is someone buys a 45 at an auction or garage sale, looks at the "sold" section, and then puts the price of the beautiful collector grade plane on the plane they are trying to sell, even though the plane they have for sale is only worth a third of what the collector grade plane is worth.

With regard to the 45 vs the 55, I concur with the others get the 45 first. The 55 is radically more complex.

Regards,

Stew

[Bob Britton]

Ok. I will do that. I was looking at the buy it now options. Impatience.

I will look to find some to bid on.

That’s probably the way to go.

Do you have a recommended version of the 45 I should look for?