70 degree angle on Richard Raffan (Henry Taylor) curved skew?

[Paul Stroik]

I have a question on the Richard Raffan 1 inch Radius skew I just received. The Bevel Angle is 70 degrees.
The skew is 3/8 inch thick with a Bevel length of 3/8 inch. This doesn't follow the 1-1/2 x the thickness calculation I have been reading on this forum, which would equate to a 9/16 inch bevel.
Do all 1 inch Skews come like this with the purchaser required to grind their own preferred Bevel? I tried cutting with this Bevel Angle and did not like it at all. I am debating whether to grind to a 40 degree or return this tool. But, thought I would ask questions before doing either.

BTW - I also purchased a 1/2 inch Skew, 1/4 inch think with a 3/8 inch bevel length with an angle of 40 degrees. Worked great before putting a diamond hone to it.

Paul

[Michael Mills]

Only a guess but it probably depends on the maker.
In Alan Batty's video on the skew he show a 25* for soft wood and 55* for hard wood, the 40* would be a happy medium for all types of woods.
You should be able to regrind to 40* without losing any length to speak of; if going the other way you would lose just a little length.
I use 40* but I am not sure if they came that way or not. I know, this was no help at all on whether to regrind or return.

After re-reading this morning when I am more awake...
I am referring to the cutting edge. There is a typical 70* angle with skews but this is across the width of the blade and nothing to do with the cutting angle.
If the cutting angle is 70* could they have sent you a scraper (or negative rake scraper) instead?

[Paul Stroik]

Mike - The radius, toe to heel is at 70*, perfect. The cutting angle is also at 70*. not conducive to good peeling action. Definitely not a scraper. I guess I had just assumed that there would be a cutting angle somewhere between 30*-55*. I don't know why I assumed that. 70* is definitely not suitable for my novice experience.
I do like the tool overall as it is very hefty, solid, and just generally a good feel. I will contact Packard Woodworks before giving this tool up. I don't mind the grinding as I need more practice...just hate to ruin a good beefy Radius Skew. Sharpening a radius is a bit more challenging.

[John K Jordan]

I have a question on the Richard Raffan 1 inch Radius skew I just received. The Bevel Angle is 70 degrees.
The skew is 3/8 inch thick with a Bevel length of 3/8 inch. This doesn't follow the 1-1/2 x the thickness calculation I have been reading on this forum, which would equate to a 9/16 inch bevel. Do all 1 inch Skews come like this with the purchaser required to grind their own preferred Bevel? I tried cutting with this Bevel Angle and did not like it at all. I am debating whether to grind to a 40 degree or return this tool. But, thought I would ask questions before doing either.

That doesn't make sense. Even my negative rake scrapers are not as "blunt" as 70 degrees. These scrapers are ground to about 55 degrees:
Attachment 379985

Most of my skews are about 35-40 degrees included angle. The smaller the angle the better the tool cuts but it can be more aggressive for those with less experience. The smaller the angle, the quicker the tool will get dull.

If the "included angle" (the angle measured at the cutting edge from one bevel to the other) is 70 degrees it is far too "blunt" to cut well. I ground one skew about 50 degrees which doesn't cut as well but is very forgiving for the occasional beginner who has trouble holding tools at first. I have never measured the bevel and compared it to the thickness. I simply grind the skew to suit me and to match other skews. I grind some with smaller angles and larger angles depending on the use and wood.

I looked at Richard Raffan's book "Turning Wood" just now and I didn't see where he gave the included angle. However, from the pictures his skews look like they are ground closer to 30-40 degrees. He also mentioned he preferred a 3/4" skew 3/16" thick. 3/8" is a VERY thick skew. None of mine are that thick, even the larger skews. Maybe someone ran out of skew stock or didn't know any better and ground a scraper as a skew and sold that to you. Packard's web site says this about their 1" Raffan grind skew: "the length of these skews is about 7" with the thickness ranging from 3/16" to 5/16".". (This sounds like sloppy tool production to me - do they just use whatever thickness of steel they happen to have on hand that day?)

Several authors recommend a larger angle for harder woods but I've never seen one at 70 degrees. If you search google for raffan 1" skew you may find the thread "Bevel Angles- Raffan (Henry Taylor) Radius Skew Chisels" on a Tormek forum from last year discussing Raffan and his skews. One gentleman mentioned that one reason Raffan may use a larger angle is "he lives in Canberra and turns a lot of Australian hardwoods like Jarra et al which will blunt a low angle quickly". There is more. Another guy I know said he wrote to Richard and asked him and suggested that as a definitive answer.

As for regrinding, in my opinion all skews need to be reground before use. I have never bought a skew chisel (or other tool) and left the grind the way it came. Even for my favorite skews from Thompson Tools the first thing I do is regrind although his grind will work. A gentleman from our club brought his new Thompson skew to my shop the other day and after honing the skew cut fine. I did think the skew angle was a little too "pointed" for planing cuts and he plans to regrind it into a gentle curve.

BTW, I wonder if Richard Raffan designs and authorizes all these skews. Packard seems to imply not, only that "Richard uses skews with a curved edge". Craft Supplies says their's is a "Henry Taylor M2 HSS Richard Raffan Signature Skew Chisel" made to Richard's specifications. I suppose anyone could copy the curved grind he uses and say it is a "Raffan" skew. I grind some of mine close to that.

If your other skew cut worse after honing you might describe how you are honing. I hone with the flat hone surface in contact with both the edge and the heel of the bevel. If you hold the hone on the edge but not in contact with the bevel it will change the edge immediately, likely for the worse. These are my favorite hones for turning tools - I think they are far easier to use properly than a larger hone. I use the blue "extra fine" hone the most.
hones.gif
I use the diamond hone mostly to renew the edge when it dulls and to knock off a nasty burr from a skew freshly ground with a coarse wheel. (I sharpen with a 600 grit CBN wheel which doesn't leave much of a burr.)

I "hone" a freshly sharpened skew edge by drawing it across a piece of MDF smeared with polishing compound, again holding it with the bevel flat against the flat surface. This may be better described as stropping than honing. I sometimes hone/strop on the Tormek leather wheel with their compound or on a flat leather strop.

BTW2, I like the curved grind that Raffan and others use but not for everything. When cutting deep v-grooves or facing the end grain a straight grind makes it easier to see the long point and the angle.

JKJ

[Reed Gray]

I am trying to figure out your angle thing as well. So, by 70 degrees, does that mean you set your platform at 35 degrees and sharpen both sides so your included/both angles add up to 70 degrees? That is generally a bit more blunt than most skews, but I am a bowl guy. Most scrapers come at 70 degrees, so flat 70 degree bevel on the cutting edge and flat on the top.

robo hippy

[Brian Deakin]

Both the Henry Taylor and Hamlet skews chisels below are 3/8 inch thick

Taylor HS82 3/8in. x 1in. Raffan Design Curved Skew

Alan Lacer Signature Radiused Skews
Description	Price* Click to buy
HCT460 Hamlet Alan Lacer 5/8 x 3/8 in Radiused Skew Chisel - 14in. Ash Handle
HCT461 Hamlet Alan Lacer 1.3/8 x 3/8 in Radiused Skew Chisel - 14in. Ash Handle

regards Brian

[JohnC Lucas]

Paul the 1 1/2 times the thickness of the blade is just a very ball park to tell people who don't necessarily have a way to measure the include angle. For a skew anything from 25 to 55 will work OK. Most people seem to like 40 degrees as a good all around usable tool. I find when I teach that they get more catches with 35 degrees, fewer with 45 degrees. The more acute it is the easier and cleaner it cuts but it doesn't hold an edge as long. Too blunt and you have to push it through the wood which is not good either. What ever the skew is if it's sold by Richard Raffen, Alan Lacer, Eli Aviser or other big names will work just fine as is. If you want to change it for personal taste then do so. Here is my video on skew differences.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFlZyGKYro4&t=51s

[Paul Stroik]

I was not clear on the 1/2" skew. - It worked great out of the box. Normally a new tool requires a little sharpening/honing. As for the 1" Skew it is advertised as a Raffan Radius with a Henry Taylor Diamic label on the handle. Not sure what that refers to.
I need to figure out how to attach pics. Will then upload to help clarify my question.

[Paul Stroik]

Learned something new today...resizing and uploading photos. 1st pic is length of bevel I referred to. 3rd photo shows the 70* bevel angle of the 1" radius skew.
4th photo is the 1/2" skew which cut great out of the box and has 40* bevel angle.

1 inch Skew Bevel Length (640x480).jpg 1 inch Skew Bevel (640x480).jpg 1 inch Skew Angle Radius (640x480) (640x480) (640x480) (320x240).jpg .5 inch Skew Angle (640x480).jpg

[Paul Stroik]

Paul the 1 1/2 times the thickness of the blade is just a very ball park to tell people who don't necessarily have a way to measure the include angle. For a skew anything from 25 to 55 will work OK. Most people seem to like 40 degrees as a good all around usable tool. I find when I teach that they get more catches with 35 degrees, fewer with 45 degrees. The more acute it is the easier and cleaner it cuts but it doesn't hold an edge as long. Too blunt and you have to push it through the wood which is not good either. What ever the skew is if it's sold by Richard Raffen, Alan Lacer, Eli Aviser or other big names will work just fine as is. If you want to change it for personal taste then do so. Here is my video on skew differences.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFlZyGKYro4&t=51s

John - Your video is one I have viewed several times. Thank you for that. The skew, size and bevel, you are using toward the end of the video is what I thought I was getting and is what I am looking for in the bevel length. Anywhere around 40* based on everything I have read about and viewed.

[John K Jordan]

Your 3rd photo, the one of interest, apparently didn't upload properly. I can't click on it and see the larger version. I tried spacing the photos out a bit (with a few space characters between them) but that didn't help. Maybe try uploading it again.

JKJ

[JohnC Lucas]

sounds like you have figured it out. I see many skews that students bring to classes that are way to blunt, some right out of the box. Don't know why they would do that. You are correct in your thinking that just about any angle around 40 will work.

[Michael Mills]

I know all radius skews do not have to be made the same but what I have seen are made the "Lacer style" where on the long point the blade is straight for 1/4 -1/3 and then the curve starts.
Yours appears to curve all the way to the long point in your second pic; even back on itself a little but that may just be the pic angle.

IIRC the Lucas negative relief scraper is 66* and the Batty is 65* so 70* would not be far off from those specs.
This is a pic of the Henry Taylor Negative Rake Radius Scraper (first pic)
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/378091331209898851/
The 70* is what made me think the vendor may have sent you the wrong tool. But maybe not, it may just be a very strange skew grind.

[Paul Stroik]

Michael M. - The curve of this skew does have a continuous curve unlike the Lacer version. After viewing your pic it certainly does have the appearance of a Negative Rake Radius Scraper. I did not know there was a such a tool.

JonC - Yes sir, definitely to blunt for my needs. And way to much steel to grind.

Thanks to everyone for your input. I believe I will contact the company and get this replaced rather than grinding all that good steel away.