How I sharpen chisels and plane irons

[Stewie Simpson]

Sellers techniques are pitiful. There is much better information on this forum.

Warren; you and I both know that any sharpening thread that's asking for advise on how to improve your sharpening technique is going to get hit with at least 20 different answers. That's then followed up by which type of steel you should be using, that then flows on to who you should be purchasing those plane irons and chisels from, and then if your really lucky you receive the full run down on the specific metallurgy of each steel. There is a special place for refining your sharpening technique, its not on an open forum, its in the workshop taking the time to practice those skills.

[Robert Hazelwood]

Whether or not he explained it this way, a reasonable interpretation of Sellers' 250 grit thing is that it demonstrates the importance of correct sharpening geometry (and by that I just mean the very basic concept of sharpening all the way to the edge and at a reasonable angle, managing the burr, etc., and not so much his rounded bevels) versus fineness. You would have to put yourself in the shoes of a total newbie, who is struggling with the most basic aspects of sharpening. They will often think that the reason their edges suck must be because their stone isn't fine enough, since they see lots of talk about ultra-fine stones on forums and YouTube. So they go out and spend lots of hours researching stones that they should be spending in the shop with whatever stone they currently have. Knife nuts are particularly bad about this. A person with experience can get a better edge off of a coarse or medium stone than the aforementioned newbie could with a shapton 30k, until they understand what they are doing.

I think a lot of Sellers' more controversial teachings are intended to be along these lines- i.e. newbies should get to work and build skills rather than spending money on gadgetry and fancy tools. Then he muddles his meaning with purple prose and provocative titles (provocative to woodworkers, anyways).

I don't like the convex bevels much, either. I think there's no reason you couldn't get a fine edge with that technique, so long as you maintain the correct angle at the apex of your sharpening stroke. But that's actually pretty hard to do, and seems like the least promising way to teach a beginner freehand sharpening. But at least he advocates freehand sharpening, so there's that.

[brian zawatsky]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks Sellers advocates mediocrity. When I first took interest in handtool woodworking I was directed to his videos, and even as a relative noob found a lot of his shtick to be contradictory and confusing, not to mention blatant BS.

I tried out his convex bevel nonsense, and couldn't understand why I couldn't get my plane to cut consistently. Turns out the 30 degree flat bevel I started with ended up nearer to 40 degrees once rounded and ate up all the clearance. Not to mention that a flat bevel makes a WAY sharper edge than a convex one.
In addition, like Stan mentioned, finishing a chisel on a 6000 or 8000 grit stone eliminates the need to strop and keeps from dubbing the edges. 30 strokes on a strop are ok i guess when you're not concerned with keeping the bevel flat & corners sharp.

Here's a good one - anyone seen the video of his where he's "dressing up" a cheapo saw handle and the finishing touch is to slather on some shellac....right over the saw nuts & with the handle attached to the saw plate? Dude got shellac all over the blade! Lol! That marked the end of my foray into Paul Sellers videos. Needless to say I didn't bother to click on the link in the original post in this thread, I've already seen enough.

[steven c newman]

Just another normal sharpening thread.....buttered, or non-buttered popcorn?

While you all are sitting around arguing over sharpening stuff, I be in the shop,,USING my sharp tools....c-ya....

[Derek Cohen]

I tried out his convex bevel nonsense, and couldn't understand why I couldn't get my plane to cut consistently. Turns out the 30 degree flat bevel I started with ended up nearer to 40 degrees once rounded and ate up all the clearance. Not to mention that a flat bevel makes a WAY sharper edge than a convex one.

There is nothing actually "wrong" with a convex bevel. If done correctly, it will offer as good an edge as any. Paul Sellers makes it look straight forward, which it is, but his experience and practice disguises the training of hand memory that is vital for it to work successfully.

30 degrees is 30 degrees no maker whether the bevel is flat, hollow, with a secondary, or rounded. Keeping it 30 degrees is the issue.

I use the rounded bevel on my mortice chisels as they use a 35 degree secondary bevel on a 20 degree primary bevel, and a rounded bevel is easier to freehand. I use a simple jig to aid in not going above this angle ...



It is evident that PS can do this without an aid. Sometimes I am not sure .. to be sure .. some of his angles look closer to 40 degrees. I certainly do not trust keeping to the desired angle without an aid, and I have been freehand sharpening chisel and plane blades long enough to feel confident with hollow grinds.

My experience tells me that there is also a fine line between honing to the edge (using his method) .. and dubbing it, or even missing it altogether. By contrast, working on a hollow grind is akin to using a honing guide in that there is much more certainty in the process.

The value of the rounded edge lies in not needing (or rarely needing) to grind. For those starting out, there are fewer demands made in terms of owning or access to grinding equipment. The downside is that those starting out lack the hand memory to be certain of accurate angles for their edges.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[brian zawatsky]

I can see using a rounded bevel on a mortise chisel, but would you intentionally do that on a paring chisel or plane iron? I think not.

The issue I take with the convex bevel thing is that - especially for a new woodworker - it is too easy to raise the angle a little bit to get to the edge when you've already been assured that a rounded bevel is the goal. If the bevel is kept flat on the stone, you know you are done when you have ground to a wire edge. Period. No guess work, no short cuts. I would think that this approach would be favorable because it provides a tactile cue to when to move on to the next grit stone.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

I think a lot of Sellers' more controversial teachings are intended to be along these lines- i.e. newbies should get to work and build skills rather than spending money on gadgetry and fancy tools.

I don't know if that is what Sellers intends or not, but that is a pretty good message. The advice to newcomers really should be focused on what they have and helping them get it to work (if it is adequate), rather then encouraging them to give up on a perfectly adequate set of stones and go buy something else. I assume people around here are trying to be helpful and not shills, but sometimes I think a stranger could be forgiven if he drew the opposite conclusion.

I have not watched an enormous amount of Sellers videos (or anyone's), but when I was trying to figure out how to flatten and square lumber, I found his videos to be helpful. He was the only one I found who actually flattened and squared a reasonable sized board. All the others I found had so many edits that it amounted to a description of what they were going to do and then "presto-chango" they cut to the end of the process and show you a flat and square board.

If you have no skills, someone who can help you get mediocre skills is of value.

I know half the forum could do it faster, better, and could use a micrometer and an electron microscope to prove it, I'm just saying to someone trying to figure out the very basics some of his stuff can be quite helpful. And if I ended my life with mediocre woodworking skills, I think I could rest easy. It is a hobby for me after all, not what pays the grocery bill.

[lowell holmes]

Nicholas, IMO, you nailed it right on the head.

[George Wall]

As a newbie who does subscribe to Sellers' videos, I want to point out that his instruction is most helpful. And his videos are top notch both in production quality and in the ability to instruct the viewer.

I think too much is being made of his sharpening methods. He normally uses a course, fine, and extra-fine diamond stone, followed by stropping. There is one post where he mentions finishing at 250 grit, but that was an illustration for someone just starting out that may not have the funds to afford stones or plates right away. But that's not normally what he recommends. As for stropping, I realize that's sometimes controversial, but lots of woodworkers have been stropping for decades without problem, so I don't quite understand why he's being criticized for it; after all, a leather strop and compound is a lot cheaper than a Shapton stone for a beginner.

Sellers prefers sharpening free hand, but also mentions in several posts that he has honing guides at the school for those that prefer them. I myself am transitioning from the guide to freehand on my chisels, so I am finding his technique helpful. Finally, Sellers himself mentions that if you find a sharpening technique that works for you, you should by all means stick with it. I certainly don't slavishly follow everything he says, nor does he really expect people to do so.

EDIT: I forgot to add: in some of his project videos, Sellers does mention he can get a much smoother surface using his smoother plane than sandpaper. He definitely does not normally use sandpaper unless it's to clean up the inner corner of some surfaces or when sanding a coat of finish.

[Jim Koepke]

As a newbie who does subscribe to Sellers' videos, I want to point out that his instruction is most helpful. And his videos are top notch both in production quality and in the ability to instruct the viewer.

My dismissal of Mr. Sellers may have to do with only seeing his videos that have left me with the impression that he is a bit pretentious. One of his videos on dovetailing seemed he was interested more in putting on a display of his smugness and not tips on how one could improve their dovetails.

Three of the videos linked in posts on Sellers left me wondering what people saw in him:

One was the aforementioned dovetail video. The second was on his method of making a convex bevel. The third was on could get plenty sharp with 250 grit sandpaper.

As they say in baseball, three strikes and you are out. To me it seemed there wasn't going to be much to learn from Mr. Sellers.

Later in a discusion on hand planes someone mentioned that according to Paul Sellers one could do all their planing work with just a #4. Yes, with great care, one could likely flatten, smooth and joint the edges of a large piece of rough lumber using only a #4 hand plane. It might take them the better part of a week instead of just an afternoon.

Steve Ramsey of Wood Working for Mere Mortals doesn't use much in the way of hand tools, but he is much more dedicated to helping folks getting started in woodworking without creating confusion. Many of his ideas are easy to convert to hand tool projects.

https://woodworking.formeremortals.net/

Charles Neil might put you to sleep with his round about way of getting through a project, but he does get through with explanations on how to pick out lumber, construction fir, from the big box stores. One of my regular projects for sell at the farmers market came from this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MX4fXbRNqqY

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread....4308&styleid=3

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

My dismissal of Mr. Sellers may have to do with only seeing his videos that have left me with the impression that he is a bit pretentious. One of his videos on dovetailing seemed he was interested more in putting on a display of his smugness and not tips on how one could improve their dovetails.

Did he mention that he made some furniture that went to the White House? I think he doesn't mention that enough in his videos...

[steven c newman]

Too many here lose track of the fact that THEY are a bit more "advanced" that the target audience Sellers is talking to. He is trying to get new bodies to at least try this kraft....without telling they need to go out and BUY a brand new, $10K shop. He is not teaching "production shop" stuff...merely getting people to at least "dip their toes into the water" without looking down at their efforts to LEARN. Maybe we should try that around here? Instead of faulting someone's sharpening skills, or selection of tools....

[Stanley Covington]

Too many here lose track of the fact that THEY are a bit more "advanced" that the target audience Sellers is talking to. He is trying to get new bodies to at least try this kraft....without telling they need to go out and BUY a brand new, $10K shop. He is not teaching "production shop" stuff...merely getting people to at least "dip their toes into the water" without looking down at their efforts to LEARN. Maybe we should try that around here? Instead of faulting someone's sharpening skills, or selection of tools....

Your definition of what Mr. Sellers does and why he does it are absolutely correct. I don't think anyone here has criticized his motives. Some have criticized his methods. But this is a forum where people share opinions. Mr. Sellers has made himself a public figure, and creates cash income selling his opinion (and methods) in the form of video subscriptions etc.. People see him as a great teacher and drag him and his methods into these threads. It is pointless to tell people here to not share their opinions on such a man and his methods.

Personally, I have no problems with what he does or how he does it. He teaches good things in order to sell a product to an appreciative audience. But as far as sharpening goes, he does not teach anything beyond very basic techniques. This is indisputable.

Some of the guys on this forum are at the basic level. Some of those are there because they are just starting. Others want to improve, but don't have anyone to show them more advanced techniques. Certainly they won't learn it from Mr. Sellers. Others have been doing woodworking a long time, and are happy with the mediocre results they are getting. There is nothing wrong with any of these 3 types. But there are some who have been doing this long enough to learn/develop advanced techniques that produce superior cutting edges in a superior manner. They look at Mr. Sellers' classes online and are unimpressed with a man that has made a living for many years as a teacher of mediocre techniques, and does not seem interested in improving his techniques, or teaching better techniques. This is natural.

We on this forum have no obligation to handle Mr. Sellers with kid gloves in our posts. We have no obligation to treat him as a great teacher, or honor him for his contributions to the worldwide fraternity of woodworking. He intentionally made himself a public figure and makes money as one. Please don't try to muzzle those on this forum who can do better than Mr. Sellers, and try to share those methods with others here. Sure, there is a lot of crap here, but there are occasionally jewels hidden inside the cowpies.

[Jim Koepke]

Did he mention that he made some furniture that went to the White House? I think he doesn't mention that enough in his videos...

It seems he likes to take full credit for that in the few videos of my watching. Yet it seems in reality it was an effort by many people.

Too many here lose track of the fact that THEY are a bit more "advanced" that the target audience Sellers is talking to. He is trying to get new bodies to at least try this kraft....without telling they need to go out and BUY a brand new, $10K shop. He is not teaching "production shop" stuff...merely getting people to at least "dip their toes into the water" without looking down at their efforts to LEARN. Maybe we should try that around here? Instead of faulting someone's sharpening skills, or selection of tools....

If he is catering to those just starting in the craft he is likely to frustrate some who try his convex bevel method and find they have too much curve and not enough relief angle. Though since they are new at the craft they will not be able to figure out what is causing their problem.

Maybe someone will think that since he has made stuff for the White House finishing off a plane blade with 250 grit paper is fine and they must be doing something wrong if it isn't working on their blades.

Often my time is spent watching videos of others in hopes of picking up a fragment of enlightening information. That hasn't happened for me with any of the videos Mr. Sellers has produced. Roy Underhill is not only more entertaining, he has also imparted new ideas and/or methods to my work. Likewise with Steven Ramsey, and others like the English Woodworker.

Some of my biggest frustrations during my working days were from a field trainer "having fun" while teaching someone else how to do the work with these kinds of tricks or shortcuts involved. In the long run it made more work for everyone else having to fix the mess left by the person who was ill trained.

Maybe it is my loss that the only Paul Sellers' videos coming to my attention seemed to be egregiously outside of proper or thoughtful woodworking.

jtk

[steven c newman]

My start was from BEFORE Norm Abrams even started with the This Old House series, let alone New Yankee....how many here learned their skill via Norm? Rookies have to start somewhere...they weren't born expert woodworkers. Maybe as they learn this kraft, they can decide FOR THEMSELVES what to keep and what to toss away....

back when...if the shop teacher didn't have an answer, one of my Uncles did....