Sawstop Injury I didn't think this could happen.

[Rod Sheridan]

To those who can't use their machines without guarding, Cheers

Hi Wayne, I read your post 3 times because it seemed contradictory.

I believe your first sentence should read " To those who can't use their machines with guarding"

I agree completely, in industry we devise guards and processes to protect the operator from injury, and it doesn't reduce productivity. It also reduces costs for accidents.

Regards, Rod.

[Frank Pratt]

Yet watch YouTube and I'd say more than 90% of the channels that I've watched do, indeed, remove their guards. As much as I like Norm, I place at least some of the blame on him for removing his guard "for visual reasons" all those years.

Oh, I agree with you there. I think it's absolutely irresponsible to advocate use without the guards. My point was that with a really good guard/riving knife system, it's so easy that I think most users do use them. On some saws, older ones especially, the guards are so horrible to use that they just get left off.

[Mark Hennebury]

Has anyone actually studied the history of timber trades or is that another part of history that is swept under the carpet as inconvenient? All trade work used to be basically lethal until regulations were introduced. It was part of the advance of civilisation that included sensible limits on working hours, reasonable wages and safe working conditions. It embodied the freedom of the individual to live without fear of threat to life and limb in their society and their workplace. This is a fundamental human right and it genuinely concerns me that the opposite is put forward as somehow better.

I will say again, do what you want in your own workshop. That is your freedom. But do not publicly advise others to adopt a culture of safety risk and impact on their right to be free of bad advice. Cheers

Thanks for the history lesson.


There is no such thing as "a right to be free of bad advice."
The internet is full of bad and biased information and bad advice.
This is the age of information, not enlightenment.
I have a the same right as you to post my opinions.
My opinions are backed up by 50 years of experience.
You don't have the right tell me or anyone else what to do. I will publicly give whatever advise i want.

There are many people injured that use guards.
There are many contributing factors to safe working in a dangerous environment and it would be wise to try and understand what they are.
Maybe it would be beneficial to examine how people who don't use guards work and compare that to those who do, see what the differences are maybe we could all learn something.
Just ignoring the fact that many people work without guards have developed safe ways of working is a big loss.

Maybe, knowledge of machinery, tooling, process, mindset and situational awareness, the acceptance of complete personal responsibility the acute awareness of the consequences of failure play a more/less important part of safety.
It would be better to examine and find out.

Many choose not to use certain types of guards...Why?
Many have worked for decades without certain guards and without injury.... how?

[Brian Holcombe]

Totally agree Mark, the important factor is awareness and understanding of what your doing with the machine. This was drilled into me at the machine shop as some operations were not able to be guarded with the equipment we had (such as a big fly cutter on a knee mill). It was the utmost importance to plan ahead, well ahead.

I'm want to mention that I made my comment with great respect to the opinions presented. I'm safety conscious, I've been like this my entire life so woodworking is no different in my opinion that racing cars, or working in a machine shop. I feel the primary defense is to be conscious of the work your doing and avoid making a machine do something it is not designed to do and to plan your workflow long before turning the machine on.

I've been a primarily hand-tools woodworker, but I've worked through many aspects of my life with industrial machinery at my disposal, my father's shop for instance has a 36 ton Ironworker and a Bridgeport mill, welders, along with large bending equipment and for a time he also had large shears and a forge. I worked in a machine shop in my late teens and early 20's, we had a lathe the size of my living room. It was an imposing but beautiful machine. My boss watched carefully as I used that machine and gave me some basic do's and don'ts that kept me out of harms way, the shop also had huge grinding wheels (the wheels are 3' in the diameter), shot machines, a hot bath for cleaning parts (200 degrees constantly running) and we worked with heavy materials such as 12 piston diesels for industrial equipment. Good practice is critical, but I sure do not mind the guards being there.

I've had the pleasure of having nicely designed guards on the machines I own and the industrial machinery I've worked with. They're not clumsy and tend to work with me, so I want them there.

[Robert Engel]

WADR, Brian,

Agree to a degree, but some guards/splitters are so poorly designed the machine is actually safer without them. At least this has been the case with 2 ts's that I have owned.

We are engaged in an industry that, like many others, is inherently dangerous. I think its not a matter of "if" but "how bad" we will be hurt. BTW, some of the worst cuts I've ever had have been with a hand chisel.

I think repetitive procedures are the danger zone where we let our "guard" down (or as I alluded, our guards let us down).

Every single time we make a cut, we have to think about the setup, the lumber, and where are hands will be.

[Keith Outten]

Accidents happen in every aspect of our lives. The idea that its not possible to use a table saw or any other type of machinery without guards or other types of safety equipment is a stretch. The fact is we, as a group, have been using table saws for generations safely without guards. Running machines is a risky endeavor and like many others every operator has to make decisions concerning their preferred technique. Many techniques develop over time and adjustments are commonplace.

What qualifies as working in a safe manner, in any shop, varies and there has never been a legal or moral specification that we must follow to the letter. When we disagree on technique its best that we respectfully agree to disagree or live and let live if you prefer.

[Martin Wasner]

BTW, some of the worst cuts I've ever had have been with a hand chisel.

The chisel is the most dangerous tool in a cabinet shop. Or at least is the most likely tool to send someone in to get stitched back together.

[Julie Moriarty]

Too many people with no training...........

Being trained in safety does not necessarily mean one will leave all the safety devices in place no matter what. I have both 10 and 30 hour OSHA certificates. I also have safety certificates in man lifts and power actuated tools. I've been the safety official on numerous job sites and as such it has been my responsibility to determine the safest way to carry out a job. Occasionally that meant re-thinking approved safety protocols and coming up with a reasonable alternative in order to get a specific job done.

When faced with the blade guard that came with my table saw, after much trial and error and modifications and adjustments, I finally determined the blade guard created a safety hazard worse than no guard at all. This was my personal decision and is by no means advocating anyone do the same. I have made other modifications and adopted certain practices that make my table saw about as safe as I can, given the options available.

My TS was made in the U.S.A. in the mid 90s. Back then I think manufacturers considered the blade guard something of an afterthought and saw little need to put any R&D into the design. I believe that is why it was so common to see table saws without blade guards. Though table saws rarely made it onto the construction site, the few I saw had no blade guards. The carpenters said they made the saw less safe and, based on my own personal experience, I had to agree.

Today, with well-designed blade guards and riving knives, I consider it definitely less safe to remove a blade guard for thru-cut operations. You just have to have one of those newer machines in your shop.

[Mark Hennebury]

The chisel is the most dangerous tool in a cabinet shop. Or at least is the most likely tool to send someone in to get stitched back together.

I will have to agree that by far most of the scars that i have are from chisels.

[andy bessette]

There is a saying: "If at first you don't succeed, perhaps sky diving is not for you." There should also be one about a natural born klutz around dangerous machinery: "If you are accident prone and are easily distracted, perhaps you should consider knitting."

[Rod Sheridan]

Accidents happen in every aspect of our lives. The idea that its not possible to use a table saw or any other type of machinery without guards or other types of safety equipment is a stretch. The fact is we, as a group, have been using table saws for generations safely without guards. Running machines is a risky endeavor and like many others every operator has to make decisions concerning their preferred technique. Many techniques develop over time and adjustments are commonplace.

What qualifies as working in a safe manner, in any shop, varies and there has never been a legal or moral specification that we must follow to the letter. When we disagree on technique its best that we respectfully agree to disagree or live and let live if you prefer.

Keith, actually there are legal specifications for working in a safe manner, which must be followed.

I'm not familiar with US regulators in any detail however OSHA comes to mind, doubtless there are many other Authorities Having Jurisdiction that I'm not aware of.

At home, it's only smart to follow the applicable regulations, as hobby users don't have enough training or expertise to develop their own safety standards............Regards, Rod.

[mreza Salav]

Many have worked for decades without certain guards and without injury.... how?

I have seen far too many people who were in that camp for 40+ years and "THEN" it happened to them.
Your earlier argument about emergency doctors: they see probably more than any of us here people who are injured by various machines. I have a close friend who is an occupational dr and his job is to deal with these types of patients only day-in-day out. Almost all are exclusively professionals. Many of them (if not all) have various trainings on how to use the machinery they use properly. Almost always it's a human error. I have yet to see a human who can claim they never make a mistake. Those who claim that if you use your head you will be out of danger are delusional!

[John Gornall]

Started as an apprentice in 1964 - the boss took me out to the shop and said 2 things.

To the shop foreman: "Show him where the broom is".

To me: "Don't touch a table saw until I tell you you're ready".

8 table saws in the shop - I was trained well

[Simon MacGowen]

Accidents happen in every aspect of our lives. The idea that its not possible to use a table saw or any other type of machinery without guards or other types of safety equipment is a stretch. The fact is we, as a group, have been using table saws for generations safely without guards. Running machines is a risky endeavor and like many others every operator has to make decisions concerning their preferred technique. Many techniques develop over time and adjustments are commonplace.

What qualifies as working in a safe manner, in any shop, varies and there has never been a legal or moral specification that we must follow to the letter. When we disagree on technique its best that we respectfully agree to disagree or live and let live if you prefer.

When I read the avalanche of posts from the "guard-free" group, it reminded me of "The Empire Strikes Back!"

I must say I have not used or come across a guard that is in itself considered a safety hazard. Could anyone please explain how their guards are a safety hazard? I could understand that some guards might be poorly designed that they are inconvenient to use or impact on the flow of your work, but how could they pass the safety tests if they were a hazard?

Guards have to be removed for certain cuts for me, but my awareness of risk of injuries increases during those times. The SS has never made me less conscious of the risk of amputations.

Lastly, a good guard has different meanings to us. If a guard does not have the SS /Euro dust collection feature, it is not good enough for me. Dust is a safety hazard to me (my lungs). (The SS dust guard is 10 times better than the newly released SS overarm dust tube unless one is ripping a stock of similar widths all day long.)

Simon

[Brian Holcombe]

WADR, Brian,

Agree to a degree, but some guards/splitters are so poorly designed the machine is actually safer without them. At least this has been the case with 2 ts's that I have owned.

We are engaged in an industry that, like many others, is inherently dangerous. I think its not a matter of "if" but "how bad" we will be hurt. BTW, some of the worst cuts I've ever had have been with a hand chisel.

I think repetitive procedures are the danger zone where we let our "guard" down (or as I alluded, our guards let us down).

Every single time we make a cut, we have to think about the setup, the lumber, and where are hands will be.

Certainly injured myself with a chisel plenty of times, same with handsaws.

You can buy guarding that is updated as far as I'm aware. Since we're talking in general terms, I know SUVAmatic is adaptable to fit a variety of machines, same with some of the setups that Aigner produces. This type of thing is valuable to me, and I'm often willing to spring for it in situations where I need an update.

I've done similar with my router table, putting on guide wheels and feather boards where necessary.

This activity is risky, but some of the risk can be mitigated, so why not.

When I was racing cars I saw a few people's cars burn nearly to the ground, I installed a halon system in mine. I was the butt of a joke for that one, but it felt a lot better knowing that if I remained conscious that I was a rip-cord away from fogging the engine bay and interior dashboard (it was a system designed for occupied cars) and not beholden to the speed of the track's rescue team which is not going to be aware of a fire until they see billowing smoke and flames.