Sawstop Injury I didn't think this could happen.

[Joe Calhoon]

it is very common to have the blade high in the UK. I do believe that the idea of it low blade is to reduce the exposed blade should the hand come in contact the injury is less severe . A crown guard take care of a high blade and finger contact and the riving knife keeps the rising teeth at the back from lifting the work in the high possession . in the low possession the blade want to lift the work at the blade and then slap the wood around on the table,at least if your at the end of a long stick and are not putting down pressure at the blade. also high count teeth blades with small gullet do not have a chance to clear at the top and so can pack before they go out the bottom, this can bind the blade up on the sides with packed saw dust and pull on the work or burn . the only time i rip(cross cut is different ) with the blade low is if i have a cross cut blade in the saw with little set and i do not want black eyes on the plate . mind you i am to lazy to change out for the right rip blade for just one cut LOL. i like the blade high for ripping in general

This is not common in the UK anymore Jack. All the shop owners there said the old UK saws with the fence pulled back in front of the blade and blade at full height was very dangerous. Sure, you probably see it in some old school or one man shops. The pro shops that have employees have pretty much adopted the mainland Euro safety standards that dictate fence between 30 to 45 degrees in front of the blade and the blade high but not full height.

It’s pretty rare to see a conventional table saw in a Euro shop but table saws are mainstream here both for hobby woodworkers and pros and that will probably never change. Most euro shops use sliders which removes a lot of the danger inherent to table saws especially for kickback. I realize most here are hobby woodworkers and don’t have the space of funds for a sliding saw.
Here are a few pictures from a BGHM safety book. They have about 30 plus pages on saw safety. A sliding saw is used in the examples but a lot of this would be valid for tables saws. This might be available online but their site is only in German and difficult to navigate.

39BBDEF5-57B0-4B2F-8AEA-7562BD5BD28F.jpg
C0861C6D-68A6-4F3F-B07B-E35CEBA1E7FD.jpg
4BF30218-B4CF-4AC8-BFB2-83814003E34D.jpg

[Ole Anderson]

Just an observation: This thread recently seems to be dominated by a few guys that are in a commercial shop setting that can justify a much larger budget for equipment than the average hobbyist Joe here on the creek, many who are trying to follow this thread. Most of us can't afford or have the room for the fancy and expensive Euro sliders. I feel fortunate that I have an older 3 hp cabinet saw (a Grizz 1023) when I see many here are successfully (and hopefully safely) using a $300-$800 job site saw in their shop. I am in the camp that says you can use an older (non-SS) saw safely if you follow a few basic rules and use a blade guard, hopefully with a riving knife, or at least a decent splitter. I learned my lesson with a kickback to the gut only a few years after I got my saw.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Just an observation: This thread recently seems to be dominated by a few guys that are in a commercial shop setting that can justify a much larger budget for equipment than the average hobbyist Joe here on the creek, many who are trying to follow this thread. Most of us can't afford or have the room for the fancy and expensive Euro sliders. I feel fortunate that I have an older 3 hp cabinet saw (a Grizz 1023) when I see many here are successfully (and hopefully safely) using a $300-$800 job site saw in their shop. I am in the camp that says you can use an older (non-SS) saw safely if you follow a few basic rules and use a blade guard, hopefully with a riving knife, or at least a decent splitter. I learned my lesson with a kickback to the gut only a few years after I got my saw.

Ole, I couldn't agree more with you! The only time the blade guard comes off my saw is when I am doing dados or a non-through cut. My blade guard has a splitter that works well and it's not removeable.

[Joe Calhoon]

Just an observation: This thread recently seems to be dominated by a few guys that are in a commercial shop setting that can justify a much larger budget for equipment than the average hobbyist Joe here on the creek, many who are trying to follow this thread. Most of us can't afford or have the room for the fancy and expensive Euro sliders. I feel fortunate that I have an older 3 hp cabinet saw (a Grizz 1023) when I see many here are successfully (and hopefully safely) using a $300-$800 job site saw in their shop. I am in the camp that says you can use an older (non-SS) saw safely if you follow a few basic rules and use a blade guard, hopefully with a riving knife, or at least a decent splitter. I learned my lesson with a kickback to the gut only a few years after I got my saw.

Ole,
I did mention in my post that I know most here are hobby and use table saws. The safety pages I posted can be useful for table saws.
Yes, Table saws can be used safely. I used one for 40 years with no loss of limb.
joe

[Martin Wasner]

Joe, how much of the slider work has gone to routers? I'm convinced nowadays that with out one you can't be competitive, and I think that holds especially true when doing frameless cabinetry where the machining is quite a bit different than face frame cabinetry.


If I were getting into this today, I'd probably get a router and a, edge bander. Then just work.

I also purely think of this industry from a residential cabinetmakers view too. I would think that is the most prolific of woodworkers though.

[Mark Hennebury]

Joe, how much of the slider work has gone to routers? I'm convinced nowadays that with out one you can't be competitive, and I think that holds especially true when doing frameless cabinetry where the machining is quite a bit different than face frame cabinetry.


If I were getting into this today, I'd probably get a router and a, edge bander. Then just work.

I also purely think of this industry from a residential cabinetmakers view too. I would think that is the most prolific of woodworkers though.

Martin,

I worked in a commercial cabinet shop for a year or two a couple of years back; They seemed to be making lots of money as the three owners had huge houses and late model BMW's and they punched out a lot of cabinets for Universities, food courts and such; They had a big slider, a cnc router and a cnc edgebander Most of the cabinet parts were cut on the CNC router. In talking with the shop foreman, he told me that since they got the cnc router they had increased productivity ten-fold!
He said that everything used to be cut on the slider, and since getting the CNC router the slider was hardly used. They got through forlifts of panel stock each day, with probably ten shop employees. All parts were cut on the router and had part numbers stuck on them and stacked in racks, to be taken and assembled. Mostly the job consisted of gluing and pinning boxes together, Not exactly interesting work.

[brent stanley]

This is not common in the UK anymore Jack. All the shop owners there said the old UK saws with the fence pulled back in front of the blade and blade at full height was very dangerous. Sure, you probably see it in some old school or one man shops. The pro shops that have employees have pretty much adopted the mainland Euro safety standards that dictate fence between 30 to 45 degrees in front of the blade and the blade high but not full height.

It’s pretty rare to see a conventional table saw in a Euro shop but table saws are mainstream here both for hobby woodworkers and pros and that will probably never change. Most euro shops use sliders which removes a lot of the danger inherent to table saws especially for kickback. I realize most here are hobby woodworkers and don’t have the space of funds for a sliding saw.
Here are a few pictures from a BGHM safety book. They have about 30 plus pages on saw safety. A sliding saw is used in the examples but a lot of this would be valid for tables saws. This might be available online but their site is only in German and difficult to navigate.

39BBDEF5-57B0-4B2F-8AEA-7562BD5BD28F.jpg
C0861C6D-68A6-4F3F-B07B-E35CEBA1E7FD.jpg
4BF30218-B4CF-4AC8-BFB2-83814003E34D.jpg

Were people promoting the rip fence be positioned in front of the blade? I've never heard of that. What I've heard is what is depicted in the diagram in the top left of your first image.

B

[Joe Calhoon]

Joe, how much of the slider work has gone to routers? I'm convinced nowadays that with out one you can't be competitive, and I think that holds especially true when doing frameless cabinetry where the machining is quite a bit different than face frame cabinetry.


If I were getting into this today, I'd probably get a router and a, edge bander. Then just work.

I also purely think of this industry from a residential cabinetmakers view too. I would think that is the most prolific of woodworkers though.

Martin,
Depends on the shop. If all you are doing is making furniture for IKEA you better have a lights out fully robotic CNC shop.
For high end custom though classical machines are not going away anytime soon. In Euro shops sliders are not used much for sheets other than special and miter cuts. They see most use in solid wood shops for the odd cuts. Way quicker for a lot of jobs than a CNC.

Here is a good example of a vintage slider in a small German shop we were in this year. Shop was a little smaller than my 4000 sq ft.
4 highly skilled employees plus the 2 owner brothers. Been in the family for several generations.

They just installed a Weinig Conturex which is about the ultimate in a CNC processing center along with a new CNC moulder. They also had a lot of 70s and 80s classic machines that they said are used daily for jobs not compatible with the CNC. These guys were producing a lot of quality work from the small space they were in.
7C216E29-0F0C-44C6-87A7-6CD1770E5501.jpg

[jack forsberg]

This is not common in the UK anymore Jack. All the shop owners there said the old UK saws with the fence pulled back in front of the blade and blade at full height was very dangerous. Sure, you probably see it in some old school or one man shops. The pro shops that have employees have pretty much adopted the mainland Euro safety standards that dictate fence between 30 to 45 degrees in front of the blade and the blade high but not full height.

Joe if what you mean are old fixed arbors and fixed short fence saws they can only be run that way . when i say high i do not mean full. They do not have rise and fall the older kit , but they do demonstrate there effect at handling kick back on reaction timber . they do no have a sliding plate. as to there value there are a Numbers on E bay currently now asking $4000 each . these do have rise and fall and a fixed short plate fence . Not every one in the UK makes windows some make pallets .


Mr Dovey showing a rope feed rip saw of the type .


most of these type were resaws and came with power feed like this Wadkin Pickels . This one in operation in the UK

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWeFhpJ1rJI

saw_zps259ae85f.jpg

image_65018.jpg

most on ebay are the more modern type from the 60s and 70s

s-l1600 (4).jpg

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Wadkin-20...sAAOSw8Ntal83A


so they still teach it in the UK in school. here is a posters from the HSE for the modern shops there ,look at the top

psster.JPG

[jack forsberg]

Martin,

I worked in a commercial cabinet shop for a year or two a couple of years back; They seemed to be making lots of money as the three owners had huge houses and late model BMW's and they punched out a lot of cabinets for Universities, food courts and such; They had a big slider, a cnc router and a cnc edgebander Most of the cabinet parts were cut on the CNC router. In talking with the shop foreman, he told me that since they got the cnc router they had increased productivity ten-fold!
He said that everything used to be cut on the slider, and since getting the CNC router the slider was hardly used. They got through forlifts of panel stock each day, with probably ten shop employees. All parts were cut on the router and had part numbers stuck on them and stacked in racks, to be taken and assembled. Mostly the job consisted of gluing and pinning boxes together, Not exactly interesting work.

was that Gamberdino or Alaska Mark you worked for ? I am sure that there must have been a room in the back that had the saw bench for the one offs

[Mark Hennebury]

was that Gamberdino or Alaska Mark you worked for ? I am sure that there must have been a room in the back that had the saw bench for the one offs

Hi Jack, no it was not either of those shops.

They had two Delta unisaws and a big slider. The unisaws and slider were just for jobs such as ripping some plastic laminate for the tops and doors.
There was no solid wood used in this shop. This shop only made boxes, miles and miles of boxes, melamine coated plywood. The job consisted of one guy working the CNC. the assemblers would take a cart full of panels from the cnc router area wheel it to the cnc edgebander then to your assembly area , and glue and pin it together, we put plastic laminate on some parts like doors and tops.

[Joe Calhoon]

[QUOTE



most on ebay are the more modern type from the 60s and 70s

s-l1600 (4).jpg

'https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Wadkin-20-BSW-rip-saw/173413887856?hash=item286045ef70:g:tvsAAOSw8Ntal83 A

so they still teach it in the UK in school. here is a posters from the HSE for the modern shops there ,look at the top

[/QUOTE]

Thanks Jack, that is the example I was looking for that they said was dangerous. The small pro shops there were using a bandsaw to rip solid lumber.

[jack forsberg]

Were people promoting the rip fence be positioned in front of the blade? I've never heard of that. What I've heard is what is depicted in the diagram in the top left of your first image.

B

looks the very same as HSE to me Brent . on page two thou HSE would have the plate in the low not the high position to give room for the push stick . and its all in English too

[brent stanley]

Here's some more detail, also from HSE.

Screenshot_20180721-120224.jpg

[jack forsberg]

Here's some more detail, also from HSE.

Screenshot_20180721-120224.jpg

there is also the HSE PDF for the slider too

http://www.hse.gov.uk/woodworking/dimensionsaw.htm

just for entertainment here is a teacher showing how to use a saw stop safely