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Thread: Sawstop Injury I didn't think this could happen.

  1. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by andy bessette View Post
    Really, if I had to live that kind of life, I would just shoot myself now.
    And the result would be better?

    Definitely not for me. I still have decades of safe woodworking years to enjoy.

    Simon

  2. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by andy bessette View Post
    You should be twice as safe now.

    Now, I understand why the local school I visited has spent so much money, acquiring four SawStop's (All ICS's!).

    Simon

  3. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hennebury View Post
    Friday afternoon, quiitting time... Bad time to be doing dangerous work when your'e attention is divided. Best to leave that until Monday Morning when your'e not in a hurry to leave, and you can fully concentrate on what you are doing. But hey you got a sawstop so whats the worst thing that could happen.



    I don't have employees otherwise i would have all of the safety apparatus in place.
    Ignoring the sarcasm, yeah I had a Sawstop, so a wake up call *was* the worst that happened. Thanks for the advice - you're right of course. But sometimes getting stuff glued up before the weekend is what lets it get delivered on Monday though, and that is the reality of my situation.

    The Sawstop is an OK saw aside from the brake tech. I've owned a PM66, General 350, and Unisaw. They are all pretty similar in actual use. The riving knife is really nice on the SS.
    Last edited by J.R. Rutter; 03-03-2018 at 7:31 PM.
    JR

  4. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.R. Rutter View Post
    Ignoring the sarcasm, yeah I had a Sawstop, so a wake up call *was* the worst that happened. Thanks for the advice - you're right of course. But sometimes getting stuff glued up before the weekend is what lets it get delivered on Monday though, and that is the reality of my situation.

    The Sawstop is an OK saw aside from the brake tech. I've owned a PM66, General 350, and Unisaw. They are all pretty similar in actual use. The riving knife is really nice on the SS.
    Hi J.R. Sorry about the sarcasm, its a bad habit.

    My point has been to try to show that maybe the fact that you have safety gear increases your chance of having an accident. Albeit a less damaging one with a sawstop. The human brain is quite complicated and not necessarily looking out for the best interests of its owner. Knowing that you have all of the safety equipment, causes an automatic reduction in your focus. I believe that you will simple not take as much caution and are more likely to have a mishap.

    Without guards there is no such misconception. I know that when i turn on my saw or jointer, that i risk loosing my fingers, i have no guards on them, so i have the wind in my face and an 18" blade or 24" cutterblock spinning within a fraction of an inch of my fingers, i feel the danger intensely, i am neither afraid or complacent, when my machines are on, I am on, my movements are smooth and controlled, i know where my hands are and i know where they will be if i slip up. I have nothing in my way, nothing to hide the blade, or the danger, I have no sticks or rubber grips, nothing in the way to slip of bump into, no guards to have to push against, I hold the wood, i roll up my sleeves up, i check my grip, i roll up my fingers, i have a mental process to follow, i know my machine and i know my material. It may not be for everyone, but it is the only way that i feel safe.

    I understand that many think that not using all of the safety equipment is taking "unnecessary risk" Yet i have seen many using guards and blocks and sticks that scare the crap out of me, i wouldn't go anywhere near them. I am okay with my calculated risk and my approach, its good for me, until i screw up, then maybe i will wish i had a SawStop.


    I have worked around the clock on many occasions so i understand that you have to do what you have to do.

    But Late Friday afternoon is feeding time for the machines, stay alert, stay safe.
    Last edited by Mark Hennebury; 03-04-2018 at 3:44 PM.

  5. #140
    The thing that always amazes me about threads like this is the belligerence and persistence of crusty old coots arguing AGAINST safety methods and guards.
    Cry "Havoc," and let slip the dogs of bench.

    I was socially distant before it was cool.

    A little authority corrupts a lot.

  6. Quote Originally Posted by Steve H Graham View Post
    The thing that always amazes me about threads like this is the belligerence and persistence of crusty old coots arguing AGAINST safety methods and guards.
    I can't wait for the new software where we get the ability to thank for posts.

  7. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harvey Miller View Post
    Any of evidence that more Sawstop owners do this than owners of other brands?
    I think not.
    I fully agree. The blade guard on a SawStop is much better than most and it’s easy to use.
    Don Bullock
    Woebgon Bassets
    AKC Championss

    The man who makes no mistakes does not usually make anything.
    -- Edward John Phelps

  8. #143
    Apparently the injury that started this discussion is kind of old now. A thread started on a regional forum I also participate in recently and I found it interesting. It went a different direction, however. This one seems to have degenerated into a discussion of blade guards.

    A couple of points I think are worth considering. First, if you check SawStops frequently asked questions, they state you can get seriously injured with their saw if the velocity of your body part's movement into the blade is high enough. They do not comment on the blade design in that FAQ. The blade stops in 5 milli seconds or less. 0.005 seconds or less. It travels about 1/3 of a revolution in .005 seconds. How much of you it touches is dependent on how fast your body part if moving. Moving faster, like if a board breaks or knocks your hand into the blade, will result in a more serious injury.

    This is speculation but I do not believe the blade design impacts the speed of stopping more than 1 milli second. I doubt putting the blade on backward would increase the stoppage time more than a couple milli seconds. The force the spring applies to the aluminum block is something like 1000 lbs. It's like swinging a soft aluminum hammer into the blade. That blade is stopping quickly regardless of the blade design. The fact that blade design is not even mentioned in their comment about extent of injury indicates to me that it is a secondary factor.

    I have not purchased a SawStop saw yet but I probably will within the next year. I've never been cut by my table saw in 40+ years of hobby usage. I have been cut by other tools when I did something stupid or got tired. I am a little concerned that I get tired more quickly at 62 than I did previously. I like the fact that the SawStop blade guard seems well designed including being able to be easily removed and replaced. It will need to be for me to use it.

    To me the key message of the injury is that a SawStop does not always stop us from getting stitches. We still need to be careful. But if we screw up, the injury will be less.

  9. I thought about this long and hard for many years. (I’ve even considered a saw stop) I came to conclusion

    Who benefits from A saw stop? 100 hours equals 100% anything less than 100% buy saw stop!

    What is their level of professional training?
    What is their level of comfort?
    What is their level of respect for the machine?
    What is there a level of training with guards and procedures?
    What is their level of reaction materials?
    What is their level of fear respect ?
    What is their comfort level of pinch and throw body placement? 6 inches is not enough!
    How often are they practising the above per year?
    Last edited by Matt Mattingley; 07-15-2018 at 2:10 AM.

  10. #145
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    I had a tablesaw injury. I was making a dado groove on the edge of a door stile (to fit a panel). Was using a short scrap of very hard maple and the front edge 'dove' into the front of the blade and was pulled down into the insert gap, which didnt fit the dado edge close enough - climbed the blade and kicked back. The blade didnt get me, the kickback of the piece caught in the crook between my thumb and palm and pushed my forearm back into my gut (and the thumb webbing was torn open, and a bone fractured in the thumb). It was so fast I didnt really know what happened until the bruise on my gut showed up the next day (from my elbow).

    Could I have been more safety conscientious? You betcha. There were several things that could have prevented the accident. But yet, it happened (again it could have been prevented). And I remind myself of that every single time I am making a cut (even the routine cuts can become relaxed about if not focusing).

    There is a phrase that we used to use in a risk prevention product I launched once, it is called:

    "Statistical inevitability"

    It just means that even if the risk of incident is very low, if you do it long enough the statistics catch up to you and it becomes statistically likely to happen. So what are the precautions you are taking 'now' to mitigate the damage 'when' those statistics catch up to you.

    Have considered a saw stop several times. Recently upgraded to a Euro slider... I am still learning how to operate it but not sure it is all that much safer than my previous cabinet saws. My personal philosophy is, yes, I will take every piece of safety advice I can learn. I ignore budget if there is a safety item I want to try out (hold downs, feather boards, guards, etc) - these items go #1 on my budget priority list.

    Some general statistics are here (lots more data out there easily obtained by searching): https://www.wwgoa.com/article/shop-a...orking-safety/

    For the record, I DO have sympathy for anyone that gets injured. Even if they were not following safe practices. That is just me though, I am compassionate and do not wish harm and injury on anyone no matter how reckless (if they are putting others at risk then that is a different discussion). In fact, if the bulk mass of users behave poorly it can ruin it for those that do behave (just how our legal system works, manufacturers can not produce and sell products that are deemed 'unsafe', and yes this includes protecting people from possible 'mis use').

  11. #146
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    I am an advocate of using your blade guard whenever you can. My old grizzly guard from 1997 worked, but was a pain to remove and replace. Still I didn't just take if off and toss it. I eventually got a SharkGuard when I installed my dust collection system so I could do over-blade dust collection. It is easy to remove and replace so it now gets used 95% of the time I am able to use it. Thin rips, dadoes, sled? No. Add me to the camp of those that rail against all of the TV shows and YouTubers that simply don't use a guard. They are telling everyone else you aren't a man (or a woman) if you need a blade guard.

    I have been following closely Jesse and Alyssia on the Pure Living for Life YouTube channel as they build their house. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyFqabSj7Cw They are inexperienced, and admit it. They have a job site table saw that gets a lot of use. Mostly ripping 2x stock and sheet goods. And lots of fairly narrow (2-5") rips on long stock. Stuff that a blade guard would do nothing but speed up operations. Yet I have never seen a blade guard, and usually with the 10" blade lifted as high as it will go. I cringe every time they start ripping.

    And you guys that have have never used a guard in 40 years (likely the same ones that wedge the skill saw guard up) I hope you don't start telling others it is ok and I hope you continue your injury free career.

    Oh, and as far as calling a push block (not a push stick which is bad) or a Gripper which must be used without a guard a contraption and implying they have no use. Stop right now. How else do you push your stock through the last few inches without using your fingers next to the blade, especially shorter pieces? Plus it holds the stock down so the blade won't cause it to rise up.
    Last edited by Ole Anderson; 07-15-2018 at 2:15 PM.
    NOW you tell me...

  12. #147
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    Good safety video, but I can't get over wondering if he ever cleans the pitch off his blades?
    Rick Potter

    DIY journeyman,
    FWW wannabe.
    AKA Village Idiot.

  13. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ole Anderson View Post
    ...They are telling everyone else you aren't a man (or a woman) if you need a blade guard...
    No, they're not. They're showing that you can safely use a saw without a guard, which is true.
    "Anything seems possible when you don't know what you're doing."

  14. #149
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    [QUOTE=Ole Anderson;2830687] No. Add me to the camp of those that rail against all of the TV shows and YouTubers that simply don't use a guard. They are telling everyone else you aren't a man (or a woman) if you need a blade guard....


    Again, No they are not; If you have to make up false statements to support your argument, maybe you don't have much of an argument at all. How about just stick to the facts.

    When you watch a video of people showing how they work, that's what they are doing, showing you how they work. I you don't like it, don't do. If you disagree, you are free to disagree, You can tell everyone that you disagree, you don't have to make stuff up.

  15. Quote Originally Posted by andy bessette View Post
    No, they're not. They're showing that you can safely use a saw without a guard, which is true.
    You can also win the Super Ball if you play every week. Those who advocate not using safety guards, I guarantee show up in the hospital more often then those who win the Super Ball.

    Ratio % for winning the Super Ball?
    Ratio % for using woodworking equipment, not safety equipment properly... injuries?
    Ratio % for not using a seatbelt/airbags in a vehicle injuries?

    This is why lawyers make so much money. Both parties are trying to prove due diligence/negligence.

    No one won the lottery when you cut off all your fingers because you were not due diligent. (Except the lawyers).
    Cut safe, play safe and think of every time you make a cut,...this is the time you’re gonna lose every finger and the board is going to shoot at you. Then get some real training. I’d like every lawyer to ask their client, can you prove how much former professional, professional training you have prior to this incident and the professionals signed offed signature for training to rule out negligence. Machines don’t cut/hurt people. People do it to themselves. Just ask your best friend if you can borrow their chainsaw and how much they are insured for. Let me know the outcome.

    I don’t lend my chainsaws to anyone! And I’m in the midst of putting together a shop entry waiver.
    Last edited by Matt Mattingley; 07-17-2018 at 1:21 AM.

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