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Thread: Sawstop Injury I didn't think this could happen.

  1. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hennebury View Post
    Hi Lee,


    The forum is a social meeting place where we come to meet, discuss, debate, joke around, keep in-touch, learn and exchange ideas, participate or just sit back and watch the show.

    A couple of days ago this thread had 10,560 views it is now up to 12,355 with active participation daily, hardly seems to me that it has run its course.

    I don't understand Why anyone would want to see a thread end that has continued interest and participation; maybe you could explain that to me.

    It is not mandatory for anyone to participate, so the ones that do are doing so willingly.

    No need to kill it, or try hurry up its demise by telling us to move on, it will die of natural causes when interest ceases.
    There's a common perception that forums need to be "managed" and that you will lose viewers if you let things "get out of control." I've found the exact opposite with every place I've modded or been an admin. Maybe it's different demographics, I don't know. But that's the answer to your question on why forums are quick to shut down dissent or even just minor crap-talk among members.

  2. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hennebury View Post
    Hi Lee,


    The forum is a social meeting place where we come to meet, discuss, debate, joke around, keep in-touch, learn and exchange ideas, participate or just sit back and watch the show.

    A couple of days ago this thread had 10,560 views it is now up to 12,355 with active participation daily, hardly seems to me that it has run its course.

    I don't understand Why anyone would want to see a thread end that has continued interest and participation; maybe you could explain that to me.

    It is not mandatory for anyone to participate, so the ones that do are doing so willingly.

    No need to kill it, or try hurry up its demise by telling us to move on, it will die of natural causes when interest ceases.
    I wholeheartedly support your position.

    When a thread is enough, no one will read it, let alone participate in it.

    I don't know the job description of a moderator, but telling people not to go on with a discussion that doesn't break the forum's rules has the unintentional effect of telling people not to come to the forum at all.

    Simon

  3. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos Alvarez View Post
    But that's the answer to your question on why forums are quick to shut down dissent or even just minor crap-talk among members.
    Another forum I frequent is thriving...the only times I know of a thread is locked -- it is done automatically without the intervention of a moderator -- are when people put something up for sale in the Classified Section. You cannot respond to or comment on the things put up for sale through the forum. PM is the way to contact the person selling things.

    I also don't recall any thread getting removed in that forum.

    Simon

  4. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon MacGowen View Post
    Another forum I frequent is thriving...the only times I know of a thread is locked -- it is done automatically without the intervention of a moderator -- are when people put something up for sale in the Classified Section. You cannot respond to or comment on the things put up for sale through the forum. PM is the way to contact the person selling things.

    I also don't recall any thread getting removed in that forum.

    Simon
    I love forums like that. I mod one where users do often thank us for doing the admin work without stepping on anyone, and letting the users manage each other and the content. They tell us they post more *because* they don't fear moderation or deletion.

  5. #215
    Hit Sailing Anarchy. Two rules: no exposing real names, no accusation of pedophilia. (Somewhere in there someone got sued, so rule #2 was born)

    It's probably the most successful forums I've participated in.

  6. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Wasner View Post
    Hit Sailing Anarchy. Two rules: no exposing real names, no accusation of pedophilia. (Somewhere in there someone got sued, so rule #2 was born)

    It's probably the most successful forums I've participated in.
    LOL, that's a heck of a rule. Is there a short story you can tell?

    The largest forum I mod has only a couple rules. Real names are encouraged, but nobody is allowed to expose anything personal otherwise, such as addresses, workplace, and the like. No NWS posts in areas other than "general chat," and they must be tagged in the subject (then anyone can choose to view or not).

  7. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Wasner View Post
    Hit Sailing Anarchy. Two rules: no exposing real names, no accusation of pedophilia. (Somewhere in there someone got sued, so rule #2 was born)

    It's probably the most successful forums I've participated in.
    Wow! One thread had almost half a million views and still counting.

    Simon

  8. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Schierer View Post
    Folks, this thread has run its course. Let's let it die......
    Lee, Do you have any opinions on the relevant decisions, regarding or disregarding safety, that has been provided by the manufacturer? You do contribute to this forum as a member as well,not just a moderator? What are your feelings and practises in your own shop with table saw safety? How do you feel your experience could help others? Isn’t this what a forum is all about???

    I do believe this discussion has been very gentleman like and informative to(and from)Professionals, educators, people being educated to become professionals, novice and those who are considering entering the field as a hobbyist and anything in between. Can you explain your position and letting this thread die?

    Why would you want anything to die that is so educational? Is this a collective decision of the whole mod team?
    Edit: 217 posts, 12,700 views of gentlemen being gentleman, and a Full five star rating by contributing members.

    Can you answer the 8 questions as a contributing member?

    I’ve been printing this off for original post for class discussion, as posts have been contributed. I have directed about 48 students to this thread.
    Last edited by Matt Mattingley; 07-20-2018 at 1:32 AM.

  9. #219
    Yet another high-tech gizmo to dazzle those who have gadgetitis! The point is it STILL cannot protect you from a kickback (one of the major injury risks on a table saw) - which is the result of rising teeth at the rear of the blade digging into the timber. If you have a properly designed saw with sufficient power, a sharp blade, a riving knife, a decent crown guard (the last two both mandatory on new saws in the UK) and a European short rip fence, and you have bothered to learn how to use your saw properly - i.e. with push blocks, push sticks, etc so that your fingers are always at least 10 to 12 inches away from the blade - then this device is just about superfluous. I think that the reason it was introduced in the USA is because American saws are to say the least safety deficient, the design of the guards being the same as 40 years ago - in Europe we have, thankfully, moved on. I'd rather see other safety measures, such as the standards for rip fences.


    why talk about the other table saw features:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::?


    My point was partly because these guys are fitting a piece of electronics onto a machine which seems to lack some of what are regarded in Europe as basic safety devices, namely a short rip fence (their own machines have a splitter for the crown and a long parallel fence). The fence they use is really a cheap solution more suited to sawing plywood than solid wood and can never be as good (read consistently parallel) as a properly triangulated short rip fence (like thoses on EU saws , for example, not the flimsy confections on certain other machines which shall be nameless) for solid stock ripping - ask anyone who worked on a Wadkin slider BGP in the 60s or 70s.

    My experience of electronic devices on (industrial) woodworking machinery are that the dust and resin inevitably cause problems (premature failure of electronic sensors, etc) in the longer term, leading to disconnection, which to me is another reason to distrust devices such as this. I feel that electronics are never going to be a substitute for proper training and understanding of the processes of wood machining and I feel that this device is really marketed with (fear, uncertainty and doubt).

    Finally, you are never going to get a blade which will totally eliminate the possibility kickback - it just isn't possible unless you also specify that all wood must not warp when being rip sawn. What you can get is a riving knife, crown guard and rip fence which when used in concert with push sticks and some basic common sense (or better still, training) will protect you from the vast majority of potential hazardous situations. After all, if it doesn't look safe, it probably isn't...

    The SawStop was introduced for a market where people routinely remove guards and splitters and some use dado heads without the use of guards . Anyone formally trained in the use of the tablesaw should be able to tell you exactly why a SawStop will do little or nothing to protect you over and above the proper use of riving knife/crown guard/short rip fence/push sticks combination. You can not count finger saves if these are not in place. It seems to be a piece of equipment designed to protect people who are willing to take wholly unnecessary risks in the operation of a potentially dangerous machine (and let's face it any woodworking machine used incorrectly is just that). In training you are taught the use of the short rip fence, crown guard, riving knife and push sticks and it is drilled into to you time and again that "fingers should never be nearer the blade than 12 inches". During training were you to break this rule you would find yourself barred from using any machine unsupervised until the shop foreman were satisfied that you had learned the safe use of equipment. And surely that's the point - SawStop is designed to protect your fingers when you've already placed yourself in easily avoidable danger - use a TS correctly and SawStop becomes superfluous. My contention is that safety training is more relevant than any number of add-on gadgets of potentially limited application (and incidentally costs less). But then, what do I know?


    For those who are interested and the links i posted earlier in the safe use of the table saw I'd recommend the HSE website saw page to you http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis16.pdf it really is worth printing out the pages and reading them through, you never know it might make you a safer woodworker. This site is frequently referred to on both amateur and professional forums in other parts of the world, so it can't be all bad - best of all it is free training! The full index of Woodworking topics is here http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/woodindx.htm.


    http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis16.pdf

    http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/woodindx.htm
    Last edited by jack forsberg; 07-20-2018 at 10:24 AM.
    jack
    English machines

  10. #220
    Better say this before it is too late (as the thread can be locked or simply disappear with no trace -- and without explanations):

    The reality in NA is that the cabinet saws will stay and the EU style slider saws will remain to have a minority share in the hobbyist market. Given that reality, the sawstop is the next best thing.

    It is true that if ALL safety measures are followed (guard on, don't cut wet wood, don't get distracted, don't work when you are tired, don't blah blah blah), the sawstop is useless. In fact, as long as I use a sawstop, I do hope the finger-saving tech is useless to me -- I don't want it to get activated! Neither do I want to file an insurance claim for a burn-down house.

    Until the day comes when every woodworker does EVERYTHING right when using a tablesaw, the value of the sawstop technology will remain.

    Simon

  11. Quote Originally Posted by jack forsberg View Post
    ...learn how to use your saw properly - i.e. with push blocks, push sticks, etc so that your fingers are always at least 10 to 12 inches away from the blade...
    This is completely unnecessary and potentially responsible for many kickbacks, due to lack of control of the workpiece.
    "Anything seems possible when you don't know what you're doing."

  12. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by andy bessette View Post
    This is completely unnecessary and potentially responsible for many kickbacks, due to lack of control of the workpiece.
    I take it you’re one of those that has the long through fence . And then push sticks are used to guide the work after the cut is finished but the pieces is trapped between the saw blade and long through fence . I mean isn’t it lovely that such inventions like the gripper Require the removal of the crown guard for the there very purpose of control of the work in the trapped location above the blade. Had you done any research on the short position fence you would realize that your hand never enters that area and that the piece can no longer be trapped between the fence after the cut therefore illuminating kicked back. You come across as a person who hasn’t read the documentation on how to Eliminate kick back with the Hi low rip plate fence . Here is a pulled back rip plate fence in use Who techniques have reduced kickbacks since mandated in 1978 Machinery regulations.


    Last edited by jack forsberg; 07-20-2018 at 4:24 PM.
    jack
    English machines

  13. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Mattingley View Post
    Lee, Do you have any opinions on the relevant decisions, regarding or disregarding safety, that has been provided by the manufacturer?
    With over 10,500 posts, I believe I contribute a bit more than just being a moderator....

    The original topic of this thread was an unusual saw stop accident. I do not own a saw stop and have never used one. I respect the technology and have seen it restore woodworking equipment to some high schools where the previous safety devices failed to adequate prevent injuries and the eventual elimination of the training from our schools. If I were buying a new saw today it probably would be a Saw Stop.

    In answer to some of your questions. I have been a woodworker for 58 years. I started woodworking with my father making bird houses and craft projects for cub scouts. He owned a radial arm saw which to me a the time was marvelous machine for cutting wood. He stressed to me the safety aspects of woodworking as did my instructors through various shop classes I took in school. I also learned that some of the things my teachers stressed were not necessarily the safest way to do things. Over the years I have learned more and more techniques and have been a pretty safe woodworker. I was bit once by my table saw doing a cut that at the time I was nervous about and in the end, my instincts were correct as I made a trip to the ER and received 21 stitches to repair my little finger on my left hand. I was extremely fortunate that no tendons or nerves were damaged. That has been my only shop accident where professional medical attention was required. All the rest have been splinters or minor cuts from sharp wood edges.

    In my professional career in the Navy and as and engineer and project manager in industry, I have been held accountable for the safety of those working for me as either a contractor or a fellow employee. I have stressed safety for over 40 years.

    I cringe when I watch so called professionals make free hand cuts, both ripping and cross cuts without guides, safety shields or even safety glasses. The response I often hear is “ I've done this a thousand times with out an injury” or something along those lines. What they don't understand is that the basic act is inherently dangerous and eventually they will get bit or worse cause someone else to get hurt by copying them. You Tube and other online sources are full of people who show techniques which are questionable, touting that these methods are safe.

    My saw is a 30 year old Craftsman saw that is well tuned and outfitted with an after market fence, miter gauge and a zero clearance insert. The original blade guard was a piece of junk that was more dangerous than none at all, so it rarely gets used. With that being said I don't advocate that practice for others as it does leave the blade exposed. I compensate for the lack of guarding by using a selection of push sticks, feather boards, crosscut sleds and jigs to make most cuts. I also carefully evaluate each operation I make around any piece of machinery in my shop to insure that what I am about to do is safe and that I will be clear of the work piece and cutting edges should something go wrong. I haven't had a kick back on my saw in many many years, but yet I insure that I don't stand in the line of fire. My personal website shows a fraction of the pieces I have made accident free.

    I was originally taught in school that the bottom of the gullets on a saw blade should just clear the wood when making a cut. What I've learned by experience and studying the geometry and vectors of the cutting action that you actually get a safer cut with the blade raised an inch or more above the top of the work piece. This insures that the blade is driving the work piece down against the table and is preventing the piece from wanting to climb up the blade and raise up off the table where a kick back can occur.

    This particular thread has wandered back and forth from the topic and has pretty much stated everything that can be said several times. It has also wander to discussions of moderation on other forums which has no bearing on the topic. No one is likely to change an opinion at this point. There are those who love technology and those that don't, we can all agree to disagree over the value of new innovations and/or gadgets.

    I advocate safety above all and if it is safe then do it. If it is unsafe, don't.
    Lee Schierer
    USNA- '71
    Captain USN(Ret)

    My advice, comments and suggestions are free, but it costs money to run the site. If you found something of value here please give a little something back by becoming a contributor! Please Contribute

  14. #224
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    I was originally taught in school that the bottom of the gullets on a saw blade should just clear the wood when making a cut. What I've learned by experience and studying the geometry and vectors of the cutting action that you actually get a safer cut with the blade raised an inch or more above the top of the work piece. This insures that the blade is driving the work piece down against the table and is preventing the piece from wanting to climb up the blade and raise up off the table where a kick back can occur.
    Huh, and I've always heard that the blade tips should just barely clear the wood, and the cleanest cuts come from doing that. My experience is that my saw sounds better also, and often, noise equates to wasted energy/force, which often also leads to undesirable loads. I don't think I've ever heard someone advocate something different.

  15. Running the blade too low can cause the workpiece to rise.
    "Anything seems possible when you don't know what you're doing."

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