Sawstop Injury I didn't think this could happen.

[Carlos Alvarez]

Hey dude, PhD in Computer Science here with a healthy dose of what's happening in state-of-the-art Machine Learning. I'm no luddite.

I didn't think I was suggesting you were. Just a general statement, look at how many people are holding us back from so many technologies.

[Simon MacGowen]

The technology will need to progress to impact other machines and larger commercial saws to become a given in commercial shops. . Dave

There has been a video showing a sliding saw (Italian?) with the sawstop (or sawstop like?) technology. I wonder what the new owner of SawStop in Germany is cooking; for a fact, I know SawStop is still being run separately from Festool, as the recently approved expansion of the US Festool compound is all about Festool and not SawStop.

Simon

[Simon MacGowen]

Just a general statement, look at how many people are holding us back from so many technologies.

Those people could include us ourselves! The refusal in some quarter to admit the SawStop as a valid safety technology is one, even though undisputed records of finger saves are out there for people to see. I have seen people say they would rather lose a finger than have a sawstop in their tablesaw (for whatever reason, which none of us would care anyway. It is their fingers...they can do or not do whatever they want).

Simon

[Carlos Alvarez]

Those people could include us ourselves! The refusal in some quarter to admit the SawStop as a valid safety technology is one, even though undisputed records of finger saves are out there for people to see. I have seen people say they would rather lose a finger than have a sawstop in their tablesaw (for whatever reason, which none of us would care anyway. It is their fingers...they can do or not do whatever they want).

Simon

Certainly, every tech should be evaluated, so I did. I realized it was mostly a gimmick and gave relatively little value compared to other potential saw features and abilities. But I didn't just dismiss it without research.

[jack forsberg]

Those people could include us ourselves! The refusal in some quarter to admit the SawStop as a valid safety technology is one, even though undisputed records of finger saves are out there for people to see. I have seen people say they would rather lose a finger than have a sawstop in their tablesaw (for whatever reason, which none of us would care anyway. It is their fingers...they can do or not do whatever they want).

Simon

Just a bit of a note and opinion from my end of things on the finger saves . It comes across to me A circular reasoning. This just shows untrained people with their hands too close to the blade with Basic safety gear removed.Who are we saving ? It just proves every time they say they saved a finger they don’t use safe practice. I mean it’s pretty hard to touch the blade with at least to push sticks 300cm long , a crown guard , riving knife and run off table . a properly calibrated sliding rip plate fence with high and low Four and after adjustment. Training is the most relevant thing all safety equipment is just a secondary. It would be a bad mistake to make it primary. I’m not suggesting that’s what you’re saying I would just like to share my opinion on the save as rudimentary back up to the Saw stop

[Roger Marty]

Certainly, every tech should be evaluated, so I did. I realized it was mostly a gimmick and gave relatively little value compared to other potential saw features and abilities. But I didn't just dismiss it without research.

Indeed, I personally determined that General Aviation (GA) has too high of a risk for me right now. Not entirely subjective-- about 1 death per 100,000 hours in General Aviation. I figure an avid flyer easily accumulates 200+ hours/year. So after doing that for 20 years, I have a 4% chance of dying. Now all the GA pilots tell me that majority of risk can be controlled. Sure it can. But humans are humans and I'm not arrogant enough to think that I'm safer than the average Joe out there.

Now awhile back, I did a back-of-the-envelope calculation on the likelihood of a table saw injury. I wish I had the figures I used at my fingertips...but I don't. But I calculated a sizable risk of a (non-kickback-related) table saw injury over 30 years and opted to spend the extra $1000 on the SawStop.

That said, my current risk of having a fatal cardiac event in the next 10 years is about 1.5% given my age, weight, and cholesterol levels.

[Carlos Alvarez]

Now awhile back, I did a back-of-the-envelope calculation on the likelihood of a table saw injury.

Since your calculations were based on numbers regarding everyone else, not to someone who is already thinking about safety, they really don't mean anything relative to you. Just doing this puts you in the group less likely to have an accident.

For example, I kept a boat in a marina at a very busy lake with a lot of idiots doing idiot things. The statistical "likelihood" of an injury seemed high. But then you realize it's all happening to people with no training, no care about safety, etc etc. So yeah, the numbers didn't apply to me--and likely to you. By even just considering all of this, you put yourself in a small percentage of the people who participate in the hobby, and the stats don't apply to you.

I raced and rode motorcycles pretty hard for most of my life. My stats were rather impossible to correlate to the masses of bike riders. On the one hand, they were higher because I was pushing it. On the other hand, that experience made me safer during average, normal riding.

[J.R. Rutter]

Training is the most relevant thing all safety equipment is just a secondary. It would be a bad mistake to make it primary.

Exactly. I've done some high performance driving education/coaching and this is a common theme regarding electronic stability control. Lots of students having ESP save them constantly without them even being aware. But a Sawstop is either working or triggered, not halfway in between. So I don't see any downside to having the secondary system in place as long as the machine performs well. And on the highway, I would much rather have all of the other drivers keep their ESP switched on

[jack forsberg]

Exactly. I've done some high performance driving education/coaching and this is a common theme regarding electronic stability control. Lots of students having ESP save them constantly without them even being aware. But a Sawstop is either working or triggered, not halfway in between. So I don't see any downside to having the secondary system in place as long as the machine performs well. And on the highway, I would much rather have all of the other drivers keep their ESP switched on

I couldn’t argue with you there. I guess the point of the video was the guy rely primarily on the technology. But push sticks , riving knives ,crown guards ,run off tables are secondary safety features as well. They all are the same amount of Importance At keeping your hand from the cutting blade. Saw stop was developed because secondary safety features are routinely removed in NA .

[Martin Wasner]

I think Jack brings up a valid point, that being, the SS is only one machine.

Safety is more of an attitude, an overall state of mind approaching power machinery.

Having just one machine that will save you from a mistake isn't really good enough, is it?

Only one machine will protect you from tools, material, and people in the shop.

I wonder if a company could afford the costs from misfires on something like a shaper? A big block of aluminum slamming into a $600 head isn't cheap like a $100 blade. Never mind the build quality it would take to bring that much mass to a halt without damaging the machine itself.

What about equipment that you're already maimed before you even reach the cutter?

[John C Cox]

There is some big industrial equipment which will brake hard and fast from a high speed.... But you generally have to replace a lot of parts when you activate that sort of emergency brake mechanism.... It's an expensive proposition... But it's a whole lot less costly than somebody loosing limbs (or worse)....

in general - only an idiot would stick their hand into it to see if it works. There are procedures for challenging the system which won't grenade the system....

[Carlos Alvarez]

Panic-stopping an MRI machine can cost a quarter million. I was sent to deliver metal-cased PCs to the MRI lab. Nobody did 2+2, and I walked in from the summer sun wearing shades, lost and unable to really see. When I felt something weird I decided to back up, and the only cost to the whole thing was destroying the hard drives.

[Simon MacGowen]

Just a bit of a note and opinion from my end of things on the finger saves . It comes across to me A circular reasoning. This just shows untrained people with their hands too close to the blade with Basic safety gear removed.Who are we saving ? It just proves every time they say they saved a finger they don’t use safe practice.

Regardless of what -- ignorance, not using safe practice, poor training or lack of training, distraction (intended or unintended) or even outright foolishness -- causes an injury and a finger save, the point you made does not negate or lessen the value of the sawstop feature as a safety technology.

Every medical professional, family member of the injured, the injured's employer or teacher and those who will be affected by a finger loss, let alone the sawstop user (not necessarily owner), would value the contribution of the sawstop technology as a safety feature.

Every finger save is a finger (or something worse) saved. We should not belittle or criticize the technology for doing its job, or not doing enough (only one machine but what about other machines), although we can trace and blame the incidents on other things.

Simon

[jack forsberg]

Sorry not buying it. First of all fingers saves are just triggered devices. No accounting for severity of the injury nor is it compare to anything . Dare I say a push stick has save more fingers then saw stop ever will. So will the Crown gaurd and riving knife with safe work practice. The majority of the counts are with one of these devices removed. And of all the unsafe things that can kill like kickback saw stop provides the worst type of fence . Clearly the long straight through bessy style fence Provides no high low or sliding Rip plate The most important thing in unison with a riving knife to prevent kick back. Lots of fingers were being saved before saw stop ? I mean my old Wadkin Saw come from England developed in 1920 came with a crown Gaurd and all of the features I just described . That’s why I agree it’s a gimmick as it doesn’t even provide proven safety yard technology that is almost 100 years old. Is it a useful device for those who remove basic safety kit yes . Is it a device for untrained people like in the schools yes . Does it encourage the use of crown guards I’m afraid not. none of these traditional guards will let your finger ever get close enough to be cut so what they don,t count as a Save . I say there is an element to the finger count and for blame to saw stop technology for gives the operator a false sense of security . the initial video so clearly illustrates this point . You cannot touch the blade if basic kit in place And safe work practice.

Accident historyCircular saw benches are the machines that cause the most woodworking accidents. Many of these result
in the amputation of fingers. Analysis of accidents investigated by HSE has found that most were
caused by inadequate or missing guards. Many of these accidents could have been avoided by having a correctly adjusted saw guard and using a push-stick. Inadequate or lack of training for the operator was also found to be a major cause. It is therefore very important that only properly trained and authorised operators are allowed to use circular saws. Kickback of the workpiece has caused serious and even fatal accidents.

[Simon MacGowen]

Sorry not buying it. First of all fingers saves are just triggered devices. No accounting for severity of the injury nor is it compare to anything . Dare I say a push stick has save more fingers then saw stop ever will. So will the Crown gaurd and riving knife with safe work practice. The majority of the counts are with one of these devices removed. And of all the unsafe things that can kill like kickback saw stop provides the worst type of fence . Clearly the long straight through bessy style fence Provides no high low or sliding Rip plate The most important thing in unison with a riving knife to prevent get back. Lots of fingers were being saved before saw stop ? Is it a useful device for those who remove basic safety kit yes . Is it a device for untrained people like in the schools yes . Does it encourage the use of crown guards I’m afraid not. none of these traditional guards will let your finger ever get close enough to be cut so what they don,t count as a Save . I say there is an element to the finger count and blame to saw stop technology gives the operator a false sense of security That the initial video so clearly illustrates. You cannot touch the blade if basic kit is in place .

There is a lot of misinformation in your latest post which I believe partly is because you have had little experience using a sawstop (I have been on record to say I started using an ICS in 2004ish; not a heavy but a regular user since including using the PCS and contractor (much less), but not the jobsite model).

First, I am not sure what you want to say about injury severity. Are you suggesting the severity of injury recorded in a finger save could have been much less anyway had it not been saved by the sawstop?

SawStop fence is as good as or as bad as any other fences seen in the common cabinet saws we see in NA, and if you think it is the worst type, it is the same worst type countless amateurs (which outnumber people who use cabinet saws for a living, and they are also the people SawStop is now heavily targeting at with its PCS and Contractor saws) are using. If a better fence can be designed and built for SawStop or any other cabinet saws, no one should object to it, but that in itself does not lessen the value of the sawstop technology.

It is true that many finger injuries were caused in which the blade guard and/or riving knife were not used (some others who are reading this thread have already said they don't need to use their guards). SawStop finger saving tech. was never invented to encourage or discourage people to use the guard; the saw stop is a just a feature to minimize injuries. Why are you grouping all other cabinet deficiencies in the discussion of the finger-saving technology? That is the point I don't understand.

The SawStop dust collection guard in fact encourages people to use it because it improves dust collection.

The false sense of security has been floated by so many people who have never used or have no interest in using the finger saving technology. I have heard people saying the new car safety features (which previously were available to only high end cars) would kill more than save people, people will rely oh those than their skills. Several years ago, someone even suggested the sawstop actually failed to work in a tablesaw accident.

Simon