Sawstop Injury I didn't think this could happen.

[Mark Hennebury]

Originaly posted by Mreza Salav
"I have seen far too many people who were in that camp for 40+ years and "THEN" it happened to them.
Your earlier argument about emergency doctors: they see probably more than any of us here people who are injured by various machines. I have a close friend who is an occupational dr and his job is to deal with these types of patients only day-in-day out. Almost all are exclusively professionals. Many of them (if not all) have various trainings on how to use the machinery they use properly. Almost always it's a human error. I have yet to see a human who can claim they never make a mistake. Those who claim that if you use your head you will be out of danger are delusional!"



Okay so i for one, I never said that i was "a human who can claim they never make a mistake" and i doubt that anyone else did either. So don't try to attribute that to me or "my camp"

I have had many mistakes and still have my fingers. you would do better to ask me why.

For reference.I have 18" blades in my saw with 7.5hp motor and 5" of exposed blade at its max.

The inference is that we:
Disregard safety. That is wrong;
That i have nonchalant "it can't happen to me" attitude. again Wrong.


i may work differently than you and have a different concept of what safety is, but i work safely in a dangerous situation. I was hoping that you could understand the difference.


I do not want to loose my fingers any more than you do, and i do everything that i believe works to ensure that i keep them.
So the big question: am i incredibly lucky , just plain old dumb stupid luck everyday for 50 years. or is it possible that you are not seeing the whole picture?

I have worked a lot in my own shop, but on occasion have worked in other shops, some with all of the safety equipment in place.
I have seen a lot of people operate machinery with such a lack of understanding of the machine, tooling and process that is truly scary.

Accidents can happen to everyone, me included, i am not invincible and i am quite aware of that.

[Mike Heidrick]

Lastly, a good guard has different meanings to us. If a guard does not have the SS /Euro dust collection feature, it is not good enough for me. Dust is a safety hazard to me (my lungs). (The SS dust guard is 10 times better than the newly released SS overarm dust tube unless one is ripping a stock of similar widths all day long.)

Simon

How so? Not sure I follow this logic? The tubes adjust up and down and the fence is fully usable in width. The latest one is based on the Excalibur design it looks like. Dust collection is through the tube to the hood.

[Keith Hankins]

It amazes me the responses from the "Trained professionals" here about disabling safety devices and it ain't never happened to me. I work in manufacturing and I read the amputation reports and most are good people "well trained" and we spend so much on training and proper ways to do things.

If management can spot those individuals that "don't need no safety equipment, or just don't put your hands into spinning blades, and they have not had an an incident (no such thing as accident)", they are former employees.

You are dangerous to your self, and if permitted to continue we are endorsing your dangerous behavior for others. This guy ldid a great service and is to be commended and I would ask you to watch a few of these.

http://www.sawstop.com/why-sawstop/accident-victims

[mreza Salav]

Mark, having better safety methods certainly helps; no question about that. And I agree with you in that many occasions people do not use the machines properly and do not know how the machines operate and don't think through the process carefully. But all these better methods of operating the machines only reduce the chance of having an injury and it seems you agree too that it does not eliminate it (correct?).
Using guards and active safety methods is another layer to reduce the chance even further beyond what those better/safer methods of operating a machine provide.
They too don't eliminate the chance but I find it amusing that people think that just using ones brain is enough and brag about doing that for 40+ years and nothing happening as evidence that that alone is enough.
Many people tend to disregards stats and think of themselves as outliers but it is proven than using guards and safety devices added to the machines do reduce the chance of injuries.

I sign off this respectfully.

Cheers

[Simon MacGowen]

How so? Not sure I follow this logic? The tubes adjust up and down and the fence is fully usable in width. The latest one is based on the Excalibur design it looks like. Dust collection is through the tube to the hood.

Mike,

The SS dust collection blade guard stays with the riving knife/plate and needs no adjustments as it rises up and down with the saw blade. Its use is adjustment free, unless you have to remove it to make, say, a non-through cut or resawing thin stock.

The Excalibur tube is heavy to adjust in and out to cater for ripping narrower stiock so the hood doesn't get in the way with the push stick while the dust shroud needs to be adjusted up and down when stock of difference thickness is cut.

The tube is twice as expensive (and many times heavier) and is used with a 4" dia. collection. My first experience with the SS ICS (before the overarm dust collection blade guard was released) made me wonder why such a heavy accessory was necessary.

The "fins" on both sides of the dust collection blade guard also keep the escape of the dust to a minimum, a feature that even the Euro style of dust hood can't beat, based on my previous use of both styles of saws. The only deficiency to the SS dust blade guard is it does not reach a 99% or more dust collection rating when edge cuts are made.

By the way, I recently saw a video by a woodworker who runs some classes now and then and he uses his saw without a guard. Even with his powerful dust collector for the under the table dust collection, I saw a good amount of saw dust on the tablesaw after each rip. He wore safety glasses but no mask (so he could talk). People will say Sam Maloof was seen bandsawing all the time in public footage without wearing a mask and he lived longer than most of us, woodworkers or not. I don't consider myself another Sam Maloof when it comes to immunity from dust harm. It would be too late if my family doc tells me my lungs are toasted. When I saw the 99% rating for dust collection from the SS, I knew it had to be the accessory I had to buy with the saw.


Simon

[Brian Henderson]

It amazes me the responses from the "Trained professionals" here about disabling safety devices and it ain't never happened to me. I work in manufacturing and I read the amputation reports and most are good people "well trained" and we spend so much on training and proper ways to do things.

If management can spot those individuals that "don't need no safety equipment, or just don't put your hands into spinning blades, and they have not had an an incident (no such thing as accident)", they are former employees.

You are dangerous to your self, and if permitted to continue we are endorsing your dangerous behavior for others. This guy ldid a great service and is to be commended and I would ask you to watch a few of these.

http://www.sawstop.com/why-sawstop/accident-victims

Honestly, the more I think about it, this is a clear variant of the "sunk cost fallacy" where people have been doing dumb things for years and simply will not admit to themselves that they've been wrong all along. They have an irrational emotional investment in continuing bad practices. I'm sure they're all skilled and experienced woodworkers who simply have gotten bad information and kept using their equipment wrong and are too proud to admit it. But pride doesn't keep your fingers safe, does it?

[Simon MacGowen]

http://www.sawstop.com/why-sawstop/accident-victims

in the link you provided (under Report a Save), I saw this question:


Was the saw operator wearing gloves at the time? * Yes No

The discussion of yes guard and no guard in this thread mirrors the discussions between yes gloves and no gloves with both camps advancing views on why it is a dangerous practice or why it is not.

Simon

[Pat Barry]

Fact is, nobody is going to change, no matter how nasty some of the postings are made here about their safety practices. I hope some of the 'better than thou' and very judgemental commentary would stop. Stick to facts please...

[andy bessette]

...people have been doing dumb things for years and simply will not admit to themselves that they've been wrong all along. They have an irrational emotional investment in continuing bad practices. I'm sure they're all skilled and experienced woodworkers who simply have gotten bad information and kept using their equipment wrong and are too proud to admit it. But pride doesn't keep your fingers safe, does it?

And I honestly feel sorry for all the self proclaimed woodworkers who, without myriad safety gadgets and patented gizmos, cannot prevent themselves from cutting off body parts.

[Steve Demuth]

Lot's of heat and light in this thread, much of which boils down to trying to argue whether it's operator training and technique that makes using a table saw safe, or safety devices that do so. Both are important, and arguing against either as if there were an "or" choice is defying facts and reason.

On any saw, an operator who is trained and who concentrates on safe use is going to suffer far fewer incidents and injuries than one who either doesn't know or doesn't follow sound practice. But they will still have accidents. We know this from many settings, from industries with sound, firm training programs, to the surgical example I gave earlier.

So when a "slip" happens, safety devices like guards, riving knives and saw stop add another layer of safety. It's harder to lose control of a cut and get a kickback if you have a properly tuned riving knife. If you slip or in a moment's inattention (woodworkers are ALL human) reach the wrong way, a well-designed guard may well prevent or reduce the severity of saw contact. Or saw stopping technology will very likely neuter the blade before you are seriously injured by contact.

How this can be debatable eludes me.

I've been driving for 40 years. Never had an accident more serious than a little bent sheet metal in a parking lot. Air bags nevertheless make me safer. I may yet make a serious mistake driving, and I certainly rely on the air bags in my vehicles to work if I do.

[Brian Henderson]

And you know this about Sawstop owners how?

Go watch YouTube. How many of them are using a blade guard? How many of them made videos about getting a Saw Stop for "safety"?

[Jay Michaels]

Why in the world (other than while using a crosscut sled) would someone not use a riving knife, at a minimum, with their table saw?

[Brian Holcombe]

Can we somehow merge this with a Neanderthal haven sharpening thread?

[keith micinski]

Guards being used or not shouldnt be the point of this tread. Isn’t the exact purpose of the sawstop mechanism designed to account for stupid human error? The guy stuck his hand into the blade on accident and the sawstop didn’t perform as advertised due to the blade he was using which wasn’t rated to be used on the sawstop because of its design. If he used all of the safety equipment all the time then he wouldn’t need the sawstop. This guys situation is what sawstop guy always touts as why they own one. Now all I’m reading are guards and proper technique were the problem which is what anti sawstop guy has always said is the actual safety needed when operating a saw.

[Martin Wasner]

Guards have to be removed for certain cuts for me, but my awareness of risk of injuries increases during those times.

You're doing it wrong.

The SS has never made me less conscious of the risk of amputations.

Please tell me you see your contradiction here.