What would you Do ? Shoddy contractor

[Marc Jeske]

Had a contractor start yesterday on a retaining wall to my design.

First day his job was to install 11 posts.

Simple, in a row,3' OC, along my placed line.

I have done this kinda work when I was able, always was accurate end result.

Partially disabled now, so hired it out.

So when they came to start, I went over the job again.. they didn't want to hear it like it was already clear to them ..so I sat 30ft away, saw them be very hurried, concerned, watched for a few hours and noticing odd practices.. commented a number of times, was told "If you want, you can pay us for what we did so far, and we can leave"

Seeing as how I live in an area where it's like impossible to find help, and I need this wall done NOW to proceed w other stuff, I went sat back down.

Few minutes later, I saw more weird stuff like concrete being dumped w C-C at 38" (not 36) pointed it out and was CLEARLY told to " !!! Let us do our job, check it when it's done !!!

So when I noticed that larger gap of 38, they had already poured mud in about 4 more holes, and CONTINUED to pour the rest.

So now, my horizontal plank butt seams will be offset 2" from post centers on S4S 6" posts, among other issues.

ANDDD... Due to a few posts out of plumb left-right, some seams may not even fully land on a few posts !!

See, they were filling w Sakrete w posts in ROUGH position, then trying to final position w the hole partially filled..

But NOT even one at a time..

They had 3 guys, and they had sakrete in the 6th or so hole BEFORE they even final positioned the FIRST post.

And all the time having a rushing hurry up !! attitude.

And NO x-y bracing, just tied at grade w a long 2x6, and then later they moved it to the tops of the row.

I've never seen that, but they said they done this work many time

I was clearly an aggravation to them, so I said OK, and went in house.

I can certainly understand tying posts together like that, but not w/o ANY additional bracing.

I already had done not only a stringline, but also both end of the line posts fully installed in concrete to gauge from. (Post #1, and post #13)

I had pre done this to minimize any "misunderstanding".

His job was to install 11 6x6 posts 3'0" OC.

Auger to spec'd depth and backfill w sakrete/water.

Was clearly told, and could see posts are 1/2" from string.


Later in day after he leaves, I go check it out.

3-4 of the 11 posts are arguably OK, close to Plumb, proper c-c spacing, distance from line.

Still not at all accurate as mine, I would get them more accurate, but arguably OK.

Now to the other 7 posts...

ALL are leaning in different directions.. measured w a 4 ft level (So, amount off of plumb in 4' height) - 3/4", 2" , 1 1/2" ,1 1/2" ,1", 1 1/2", 1 3/8".

Of those posts, 3 also also leaning about 1- 1 1/2" in the other axis.

Also, up to 1 1/2" deviations in few places of C-C spacing.. I can live w that though.

I called him yesterday eve, calmly explained the issue, he hung up on me.

NO money has been paid yet, and material was all onsite supplied by me.

-- I can figure out my physical options, but summarized , those posts are unusable as placed., it needs to be totally re done.. So I'm not asking for advice on that.. too hard to do w/o seeing the whole picture.

What I'm asking is -- How would you deal w the contractor ???

First, no matter what, he is Fired.

Thing is, I'm pretty sure he will demand payment "for what he did"

In reality, "What he did" was burn up $400 + of MY material.

.60 treated CCA posts that I had delivered from 130 miles away cause I can't get them closer, and about 25 80 lb $4 bags of Sakrete.

So know I have to settle for .40 posts local, or drive 260 miles to replace my .60.

Very aggravated, and even more so cause I anticipate he's gonna posture that I'M the crazy fussy one.

So the picture below shows a view of the worst part down the row view at about 4ft above grade.

That belly in the 2x6 is cause preponderance of those posts were leaning that way.

Ya... Marc

Wall stringline view.jpg

[Frederick Skelly]

Man, that's aggravating. Sorry to see it.
Speaking personally, I wouldn't pay the guy if the work is shoddy and he won't correct it.

It sounds like you're pretty remote. But is there any kind of county inspector, etc who could write a letter or something confirming that this guy did a shoddy job? That plus pictures would help you if he goes to small claims court to get what he thinks you owe him - or if you decide to recover the cost of materials and having the bad ones taken out.

[Rich Engelhardt]

Take pictures....then take more pictures.....then some more and more and more and more pictures.
Write down every detail you can think of as well as any documentation you can think of.

Try very hard to trade text files with him where he confirms what you wanted.

Make sure you have all the dates & times written down.

This will probably end up in court & thanks to my wife and her obsession with court TV shows....

It the one with the best documentation that usually ends up winning.

As an FWIW - we also ended up in court once with a bad tenant & it was the pictures and documentation that got us most of what we wanted.

[Lee Schierer]

Did you have a written specification that the contractor was given? Did you ask for, receive and check any references on this guy before he started your job. Have you paid the guy? If not, it will be your word against his that the posts were to be on 3 foot centers. The sloppy workmanship might get you some relief with documentation. I would first contact the BBB and file a complaint with them, though it sounds like this contractor may not be a member.

[Joe. Rivera]

did you have a contract with him?
if not, tell him to pound sand. if he shows up, call the sheriff.

[John C Cox]

A verbal contract is assumed to be legal in business... And if you decide to go at this in court - get your ducks in a row... Get all the evidence in order. The legal standard in most places is "workman like" or "customary" work - they won't enforce perfect or how you think it ought to be..

Most likely the fellow has already filed for a contractor's lien on the property.. You will have to go to court to get that resolved.

My own thinking is that this is one reason I really like to contract out the whole job to one fellow as much as I can.... If he is responsible for a finished fence - and his guy sets the posts wrong, it's his problem to deal with.... He can't charge you extra because his own worker does shoddy work.. He has to eat that...

Now, though - the job was a row of posts and there is a row of posts. What happens to the of posts now is not his problem...

In hind sight - the correct thing to do when they aren't working to the standard you need and won't to listen to you about the results you need is to stop work immediately and don't let them restart until the results are agreed upon. If you can't - run them off the jobsite. Get the owner out there and make sure the standard is agreed to... Because the owner also needs to know his crews aren't doing good work....

As for where you are now - get the owner out there personally. Hang up your strings and demonstrate the problem... Work to get some agreement on the resolution - and keep records.... Exhaust that route before you go to court - this also demonstrates you tried your best to get it sorted out prior to involving courts....

[Marc Jeske]

John - Again, 7 out of 11 posts are ALL at least 1 1/2" out of plumb in 4 ft rise (4 foot level) in some direction.

About 3 of the above are 1 1/2" to even 2" out of plumb on BOTH x and y.

Is that just not sufficient for MY PERSONAL " how you (I) think it ought to be..", but sufficient for "workman like or Customary" ?

Are you saying you would accept the described work, and feel it is "workman like" ?

Hard to believe you would think so.


Everything considered, it is wisest to cut posts off at concrete level, and re start new posts along same stringline, but offset 16" L or R down the line.

Trying to in any way "pull" out or "Move" these posts will reduce support and could result in a vertical excavated wall 10" from the line shearing.

In THIS case, big picture alll considered, There is NO overall practical or $ wise benefit to try to re use the posts..


The rest of your post I have done and/or are doing.


O, and I am the Homeowner.. AND they WERE supposed to do the wall start to finish, other than the end posts and stringline I set to avoid "Misunderstandings" by unsharpest in the shed tool types.

Now, after installing these posts and leaving for the day, and me checking the work done, They have been told NOT to come back other than pickup their Tractor, and I would let them know in a few days what our position will be.

They will be paid nothing, and we ask to recover the $500 of burned up wasted matl.

If we do not receive check within 1 week, then see them in SC Court.

Tractor was picked up this morning w no interaction, no incident.

Marc

[John C Cox]

Marc,

My point with "Customary" or "Workmanlike" work was not to throw a rock at you or make any claims pertaining to the quality of the work in question.... Just to simply illustrate the typical legal standard which will apply unless you have a written and signed Statement of Work agreement with the contractor...

Did the work meet that standard of "customary" work on a retaining wall? I am no authority to make a judgment either way.. Unfortunately - you would probably have to pay a licensed inspector or Professional Engineer to give you a written statement if it comes to that in court.. And unless you have a P.E. friend who deals with this sort of thing - that likely costs more than the job...

Just for your own sanity - please make sure nobody files a Contractor's Lien against you.. Remember that any of the fellow's workmen can file one if they don't get paid.. It happens all the time when a contractor fails to pay his subcontractors - they go file a lien against the homeowner....

[Julie Moriarty]

Marc, sorry you had to go through this.

Having worked in construction for 35 years, my two cents is what Rich said, document everything to protect yourself in case the contractor files a Mechanic's Lien. If you can show a judge pictures of the shoddy workmanship along with the information you provided here, the judge will probably remove the lien and may even require the contractor to reimburse you for your losses.

As for the contractor, the fact he hung up on you tells me he has no plans of righting the wrong. But it's in your best interest to continue to attempt to give him the chance to do so. Send him a certified letter. Contact the building department. Do whatever you can to make sure you have done all you can to provide the contractor with the opportunity to fix the problem. Remain unemotional. Don't make threats. Just make reasonable communications that can be documented. If the contractor doesn't file the lien but you want to be made whole by taking him to court, your thorough documentation will go a long way in helping you achieve that.

[andy bessette]

MJ--pay them what you owe them. You should have stopped them when you saw they could not work to your standards.

[Malcolm McLeod]

MJ--pay them what you owe them. You should have stopped them when you saw they could not work to your standards.

I'd not pay them a dime until the job is complete. They didn't perform the work requested: install posts to a designated location (a string line). And, they didn't discount the job because Marc was the paid supervisor, so not Marc's responsibility to tell them they're in over their head or when to quit. Also, most of the work to-date is not 'customary workmanship' - in this part of the world a 'wall' is typically and customarily level and plumb.

I'd at least offer them the chance to remedy the situation, but i'll leave that to Marc to decide how: either refund the material cost and depart; or, correctly install the wall (w/o further damage).

FYI - My basic understanding is that a mechanic's lien simply 'clouds' the title to the property. It has no impact on the owner until they wish to sell or otherwise transfer title to the property. Not that I'd recommend it, but if you plan to live there until someone pats you in the face with a shovel, you can let your heirs worry about any lien.

[Jim Koepke]

My former neighbors down in California did better work than this. They were in construction, but they knew how to do it right.

jtk

[Roger Nair]

Is this a case where unlicensed contractors were hired? If so, Let it go. Seems like you were trying direct supervision and failed, that's on you. Find out what the licensing requirements are, but if you hired on people without enquiry into license, workers comp. and builders liability insurance, you should just acknowledge the risk you have undertaken and your failure to do the prudent thing.

If they are licensed, file a complaint with the correct authority..

[Bill Carey]

"So when they came to start, I went over the job again.. they didn't want to hear it like it was already clear to them ..so I sat 30ft away, saw them be very hurried, concerned, watched for a few hours and noticing odd practices.. commented a number of times, was told "If you want, you can pay us for what we did so far, and we can leave""

The answer to this question is always YES - send me a bill. You probably knew from the first 1/2 hour that they not gonna give you a job you liked. Why hesitate? I hired a carpenter once who didn't start getting his tools out of his car until 7 on the nose. And then he moved sooooo slow that I knew it was not gonna be worth it. Paid him his show up and sent him on his way. But I understand your frustration - there is a lot of stuff I used to be able to do that I need help with now.

[John C Cox]

Where you are at now....

To ensure nobody can take this out on you for nonpayment or whatever - poke around at Church or your favorite civic organization/brotherhood/lodge/VFW or wherever and find a friendly PE.. Even a retired PE golf buddy will do..

Ask a favor and have him write a letter on Letterhead, sign, and seal it. Now you have official legal proof... Keep it in a folder with pictures just in case...

And now - if push comes to shove and you have to take the guy to small claims court to recover costs - you have admissable legal evidence... I bet the guy didn't take any pictures - so it would be his word vs a state licensed, certified Engineer + pictures...

And now move on... Get a good contractor and get your wall built.