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Thread: Dimensioning 10/4 lumber for bench build...How to go about it?

  1. #31
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    Yes Stanley I agree BLO is not waterproof but better than raw wood. You spill your coffee and you get longer to wipe it up. For me the attraction is it won't chip like a film finish, it is non slip and claimed to be anti fungal.
    It is easily renewed on a bench top that takes abuse, like any oil finish. Applied smoking hot with wire wool & tongs once a week for 7 weeks it penetrates an astounding 1mm!
    Adding bees wax to the BLO for legs and underside helps. The plastic coated drop cloth works better!
    ​You can do a lot with very little! You can do a little more with a lot!

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Hutchinson477 View Post
    I'm gonna give this a shot on one of the boards to see how it goes. I'll joint one edge first to have a good reference for the saw guide. Right now my only alternative is a table saw and honestly I feel more comfortable using a circular saw here. The table saw I can borrow doesn't have a riving knife or any other safety features, and these boards are also full of sap and pitch that I'm not sure how a table saw would handle.
    Its likely that your circular saw will tend to bind up doing rip cuts on this wood. You may need to stop your cuts when this happens and insert some wedges in your kerf to keep it open. Something like a shim for shimming a door frame will work nicely. If you keep the kerf open things will be easy (and safer for you).

  3. #33
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    Lots of very good advice on here! It is amazing how wood moves as you work on it, just leaving only one surface open to the air over night can change it's shape even fully dried. You release the tension on one side it can then twist. What you do to one side, do to the other is a good rule.
    ​You can do a lot with very little! You can do a little more with a lot!

  4. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Hutchinson477 View Post
    I am wondering if a circular saw with a track/guide would do the job as well. My only concern with that idea is find a track or straight enough guide that is 72"+ long. Thoughts?
    Matthew,

    Sure will. Any straight edge will do. 8" wide length of plywood. Just needs to be close you're going to get it perfect with the jointer.

    You could even do it freehand with just a chalk line.


    I use BLO all the time soak all my benches and countertops a couple x/yr. BLO may not be waterproof but that's not usually an issue ww'ing generally does not involve water. But, if there's some kind of accident or leaky roof its not a big deal unless its MDF. Sure repels dried wood glue pretty well ;-)

  5. #35
    I'm an LO user, BLO being mostly BS.
    To discount linseed oil on the basis that it doesn't repel water is about the same as discounting your Westinghouse washing machine because it won't get you into town on time to catch your bus.
    Even stronger, it is one of the great and unique strengths of linseed oil that it is permeable and allows water vapors a ready route out into the atmosphere instead of remaining trapped in your wood.
    It does indeed provide some water resistance, and it takes nothing more that a little conventional knowledge to get that one - water and oil don't mix. Primarily though, its use is because of the effect on the appearance of the wood it has. And that effect can be a good one unparalleled even given the application (pun) is appropriate.

  6. #36
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    Gave'r a whirl tonight. Jointed an edge, that is.
    IMG_5213.jpg

    This being my first time working with yellow pine, it was a learning experience with some ups and downs. Overall it cuts very nicely and I, personally, find it to be a very pretty wood. There was a significant crook in the board I picked so that combined with the fact that it was 78" long and 2-3/8" thick meant it took me a solid couple hours to joint an edge.

    The tough parts:
    IMG_5214.jpg IMG_5216.jpg

    I still can't figure out a decent way to work around knots. Taking a super-light cut and sharpening frequently is annoying when there's a lot of wood to be removed, as there was here. My jack plane has an A2 blade and when taking heavier cuts it seems to go through the knots easily enough, though it tears out significantly. It's the jointer that gives me trouble. The way I like my jointer set up the shavings it takes are too thick for tougher end grain so if skewing the plane doesn't work then I just skip over the knots and after so many passes I pare it down with a chisel, file it down with an Iwasaki carving file, or even bust out the sandpaper. So dealing with these knots was a pain but not the end of the world.

    IMG_5215.jpg
    This, the darker part in the photo, is what I didn't think about before this ordeal. At least, I think that darker, kinda translucent stuff is pitch. Anywhoo, this wood being air-dried, it is pretty sappy. I ended up having to wipe my plane soles and blades with denatured alcohol every ten minutes or so. I tried waxing it all but, at least on the sole and blade, the wax would wear off pretty quickly and didn't seem to help much.

    So that part of the experience leads me to what might be the first bump in the road. This stuff is probably gonna feel kinda sticky and ooze a little sap for the next 100 years if I leave it as is. Should I find someone with a kiln and get this stuff baked to "set" the sap? Working pitchy wood is not the end of the world to me. My bigger concern is that my workbench will be pitchy and sticky, and everything that touches it will end up with a little mixture of sap and dust on it.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Hutchinson477 View Post
    Gave'r a whirl tonight. Jointed an edge, that is.
    IMG_5213.jpg

    This being my first time working with yellow pine, it was a learning experience with some ups and downs. Overall it cuts very nicely and I, personally, find it to be a very pretty wood. There was a significant crook in the board I picked so that combined with the fact that it was 78" long and 2-3/8" thick meant it took me a solid couple hours to joint an edge.

    The tough parts:
    IMG_5214.jpg IMG_5216.jpg

    I still can't figure out a decent way to work around knots. Taking a super-light cut and sharpening frequently is annoying when there's a lot of wood to be removed, as there was here. My jack plane has an A2 blade and when taking heavier cuts it seems to go through the knots easily enough, though it tears out significantly. It's the jointer that gives me trouble. The way I like my jointer set up the shavings it takes are too thick for tougher end grain so if skewing the plane doesn't work then I just skip over the knots and after so many passes I pare it down with a chisel, file it down with an Iwasaki carving file, or even bust out the sandpaper. So dealing with these knots was a pain but not the end of the world.

    IMG_5215.jpg
    This, the darker part in the photo, is what I didn't think about before this ordeal. At least, I think that darker, kinda translucent stuff is pitch. Anywhoo, this wood being air-dried, it is pretty sappy. I ended up having to wipe my plane soles and blades with denatured alcohol every ten minutes or so. I tried waxing it all but, at least on the sole and blade, the wax would wear off pretty quickly and didn't seem to help much.

    So that part of the experience leads me to what might be the first bump in the road. This stuff is probably gonna feel kinda sticky and ooze a little sap for the next 100 years if I leave it as is. Should I find someone with a kiln and get this stuff baked to "set" the sap? Working pitchy wood is not the end of the world to me. My bigger concern is that my workbench will be pitchy and sticky, and everything that touches it will end up with a little mixture of sap and dust on it.
    An electronic jointer is a nice tool for grunt work.

    Re stickiness, use an oilpot, or just wipe the bottom of the plane over a clean rag soaked in motor oil, or whatever liquid lube floats your boat.

    Stan

  8. #38
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    I made my bench out of construction douglas fir, which is kiln dried a little bit but not really enough to set the pitch. There were several pitch pockets that would ooze sap and drip on the floor while I was building it. But it has not been a problem since, and a decent top coat like shellac or poly would tend to seal it in. So the bench shouldn't be sticky when you're done.

    I'm doing a big project in yellow pine now myself. Luckily all of my stock is straight grained and knot free, and it planes well. I imagine the knots would be like granite. You might try setting your cap iron close, if you haven't already- it seems to stabilize the blade some and help it stay in the cut amidst the swirling grain and changing densities. Plus all of the usual tricks- keep very sharp, skew the plane, light shavings, etc.

    But it is no fun at all to chop mortises in it, or to basically do anything involving a chisel. The huge contrast in hardness between the light and dark growth rings causes the chisel to want to wander and twist in the cut if you're not very careful. For the same reason, it is hell on chisel edges, moreso than any hardwood I've worked. Yet it requires extreme sharpness to work cleanly, since the soft rings tear easily. I've had to raise the bevel angles on all the chisels I'm using to minimize the chipping, and I'm still sharpening more often than usual.

    Just venting a little I suppose Curious to see how your experience is.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Hazelwood View Post
    I made my bench out of construction douglas fir, which is kiln dried a little bit but not really enough to set the pitch. There were several pitch pockets that would ooze sap and drip on the floor while I was building it. But it has not been a problem since, and a decent top coat like shellac or poly would tend to seal it in. So the bench shouldn't be sticky when you're done.

    I'm doing a big project in yellow pine now myself. Luckily all of my stock is straight grained and knot free, and it planes well. I imagine the knots would be like granite. You might try setting your cap iron close, if you haven't already- it seems to stabilize the blade some and help it stay in the cut amidst the swirling grain and changing densities. Plus all of the usual tricks- keep very sharp, skew the plane, light shavings, etc.

    But it is no fun at all to chop mortises in it, or to basically do anything involving a chisel. The huge contrast in hardness between the light and dark growth rings causes the chisel to want to wander and twist in the cut if you're not very careful. For the same reason, it is hell on chisel edges, moreso than any hardwood I've worked. Yet it requires extreme sharpness to work cleanly, since the soft rings tear easily. I've had to raise the bevel angles on all the chisels I'm using to minimize the chipping, and I'm still sharpening more often than usual.

    Just venting a little I suppose Curious to see how your experience is.
    That's good news on the sap issue. Having it kiln-dried for a few days wouldn't cost me much but the guy I know in town with a kiln is unavailable for about a month. Working with the sap isn't that big a deal, just a minor nuisance. I am mainly worried about having a finished workbench that feels sappy and gets sap all over the pieces I work on the bench.

    Apart from the knots and sap I've found this stuff pretty enjoyable to work so far. With a decently sharp iron it cuts like butter. But then again I'm used to working with oak more than anything else. Maybe when I get around to walnut and cherry I'll look back at how miserable yellow pine was to work with.

    Hopefully I can cut most of the knots out when I start dimensioning parts. There are only a handful that are big and problematic. I probably didn't pick the best board to joint first but oh well. Gotta learn how to deal with these things somehow.

  10. #40
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    I was warned away from BLO a long time ago. I don’t bother with it, and I’ve never known straight oil finishes to do much of anything beyond adding a light sheen or color.

  11. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Holcombe View Post
    I was warned away from BLO a long time ago. I don’t bother with it, and I’ve never known straight oil finishes to do much of anything beyond adding a light sheen or color.
    That which you were warned away from, it's good for making glass putty.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Holcombe View Post
    I was warned away from BLO a long time ago. I don’t bother with it, and I’ve never known straight oil finishes to do much of anything beyond adding a light sheen or color.
    I'm not trying to be argumentative here, just curious. What would you use if you want a finish that doesn't build a film?

    As far as protection goes I realize BLO is not much but thus far I haven't found anything that gives a similar tactility. Even the thin wiping varnishes, which I also really like, make a piece look and feel like it has a thin film of plastic over it, which I suppose it does. I've tried tung oil but honestly it doesn't seem to offer much that BLO doesn't.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Hutchinson477 View Post
    I'm not trying to be argumentative here, just curious. What would you use if you want a finish that doesn't build a film?

    As far as protection goes I realize BLO is not much but thus far I haven't found anything that gives a similar tactility. Even the thin wiping varnishes, which I also really like, make a piece look and feel like it has a thin film of plastic over it, which I suppose it does. I've tried tung oil but honestly it doesn't seem to offer much that BLO doesn't.
    Important Preface: Those that love BLO and are satisfied with the results will not read this post through to the end, and will misunderstand it entirely. It always happens on the subject of BLO. Very predictable. Almost like a psychosis. "Groupthink" is what Dr. Janis at Yale University called it, I think. If that is you, you are clearly not interested in alternative solutions, and cannot provide informed input to this post, so please stop reading now, close it, and go talk with your shop cat.

    There are alternatives to BLO. I can share one that was taught to me by a professional gunstock maker. I have yet to find a better or more durable method.

    BLO was used for centuries to finish everything from gunstocks, to fine furniture, to house siding. It was really the only thing available. Linseed oil comes from pressed flax seeds. Flax was cultivated for oil, and for fibers to produce "linen" (poor people could not afford imported cotton or luxurious wool, beyond homespun). One would apply it, let it soak in, and rub it out, polishing the wood in the process. This is where the term "hand-rubbed finish" comes from. The gunmakers of London England were famous for this technique and the beautiful results obtained. This is the famous "London Finish" that people paid lots of money for. It took literally months of handwork to accomplish.

    But BLO is not very protective, and not at all durable, and must be replenished at least annually if it is to do its job, and maintain its appearance. And because BLO never fully hardens (polymerizes), does not actually physically seal the grain, and is photo-reactive and darkens over time, it attracts dust and dirt pulling it into the wood's fibers. The end result is a fragile finish that does not provide real protection against moisture or dirt, and gets dirtier and darker as time passes. Notice the condition of even well-maintained old gunstocks and high-end furniture finished with BLO after a hundred years or so.

    And it adds a sickly yellow tone to the wood.

    The custom gunmakers of North America developed their own finishing techniques, surpassing the British long ago in creating durable, protective, and beautiful finishes. This is why no one hears anything about the once-famous London Finish anymore.

    Here is how to use if for workbenches.

    Mix a good-quality synthetic-resin varnish 1:1 with a good quality thinner. Epiphanes is pricey, but the best I have found. Minwax sold at the Home Despot will work fine. WATER BASED VARNISH WILL NOT WORK, so you poor guys in Californication that are hated by your corrupt government are SOL unless you bring some home in your car after a visit to Las Vegas or Reno.

    Home Despot's cheapo thinner sucks.

    Apply this thin mixture with a brush to the wood. Keep applying until it won't soak up anymore. Especially endgrain. Let it dry. Repeat until the wood won't soak anymore, and dried finish is standing on the wood. It will look ugly, but that is OK. The purpose of this is to cause the varnish to penetrate deeply into the grain and seal the wood fibers, preventing/reducing moisture transfer, and dirt/grime infiltration into the wood.

    Using this same 1:1 mixture and 220 grit W/D sandpaper (calm down, sandpaper is our friend), wet sand the wood. Make sure to keep the surface very wet. Use rubber gloves. You want to create a slurry of wet finish and sawdust, and then force that slurry deep into the wood's surface, further sealing the grain and preventing/reducing moisture transfer and dirt/grime infiltration. Don't wipe off the slurry, but let it dry proud on the wood's surface. It will look as ugly as a mud fence, but that's OK.

    Did the wood suck up a lot of the mixture when wet sanding the first time, or not? If it did, you want to repeat the wet sanding process. Remember to let the varnish/thinner/sawdust slurry dry on top of the wood's surface. Don't wipe it off yet.

    Finally, wet sand one last time cutting down all the dried mixture and dried slurry on the wood's surface, and wipe it off completely before it gets sticky. When done, there should be nothing left of the wood's surface (lots inside the wood, however). You can use 220 grit sandpaper, or go with progressively finer grits if you want a better final appearance. In the case of furniture, I finish with 600 grit.

    This is the first step in the ancient and very expensive "London Finish" except you have replaced the never-fully-hardening and dirt-attracting and always-getting-darker BLO with a substance that penetrates as deeply as BLO, but actually provides durable and effective protection.

    If you are making fine furniture or an expensive gunstock, you would next apply several coatings of thinned varnish on top of this, rubbing out each one until a deep, subtly lustrous surface finish is produced. Voila. It is a lot of work, and few have the patience, but if you can do a French finish, then you can do this.

    But the sealing process, not the surface finish, is all that is required for a workbench.
    But the sealing process, not the surface finish, is all that is required for a workbench.
    But the sealing process, not the surface finish, is all that is required for a workbench.

    NO SURFACE FILM.
    NO SURFACE FILM.

    NO SURFACE FILM.


    I hope 3 times is the charm.

    The wood is now sealed beyond just the surface. The wood is now harder than it was prior to this process. There is nothing to chip or become damaged or make the workbench top slippery. The finish can easily be refreshed any time.

    As a final touch, and to keep glue from sticking, I apply floor wax (Johnsons makes a good product) after the wood has dried for a week (it will out-gas thinner for some time). Don't use furniture wax: It will create a slippery surface. Floor wax is non-slip.

    This process is simply the evolution of BLO as developed by professional finishers whose clients wanted better results than BLO could provide. Give it a try and show everyone what a real hand-rubbed finish should look like.
    Last edited by Stanley Covington; 03-03-2018 at 12:08 AM.

  14. #44
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    BLO is a drying oil, it polymerises in air making longer chains that cease to be 'oily' The surface of the wood hardens with the oil. Surface films do the same thing, partly in the wood and lots of it outside the wood. Surface films are less porus but chip or crack with time. They are not very durable for a work bench unless you pour a film of epoxy over the bench.
    Do you want to feel you are working on a plastic film or on wood?
    BLO will add a nice shade to many woods bringing out the grain, it does slow the ingress and egress of water vapour during seasonal changes so the expansion & contraction are more controlled. That may be all you want it to do.

    Other drying oils are more expensive, some less tinting but their function is similar. The big plus is not having to remove it over decades to start again and refreshing it is simple. What more does a workbench need?
    ​You can do a lot with very little! You can do a little more with a lot!

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by William Fretwell View Post
    BLO is a drying oil, it polymerises in air making longer chains that cease to be 'oily' The surface of the wood hardens with the oil. Surface films do the same thing, partly in the wood and lots of it outside the wood. Surface films are less porus but chip or crack with time. They are not very durable for a work bench unless you pour a film of epoxy over the bench.
    Do you want to feel you are working on a plastic film or on wood?
    BLO will add a nice shade to many woods bringing out the grain, it does slow the ingress and egress of water vapour during seasonal changes so the expansion & contraction are more controlled. That may be all you want it to do.

    Other drying oils are more expensive, some less tinting but their function is similar. The big plus is not having to remove it over decades to start again and refreshing it is simple. What more does a workbench need?
    With all due respect, while BLO does a better job of polymerizing than straight linseed oil, it does not qualify as a "drying oil." It only partially polymerizes. Professional tests have repeatedly proven it does not prevent moisture ingress/egress, or mitigate seasonal expansion/contraction.

    In order to make linseed oil fully polymerize, metallic drying agents must be added. At this point it is no longer BLO, but a wood finish that contains linseed oil.

    If you now add varnish to the linseed oil and drying chemical mixture, you have WATCO Danish Oil Finish. A good product, but still lacking IMO.
    Last edited by Stanley Covington; 03-02-2018 at 11:17 PM.

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