Dimensioning 10/4 lumber for bench build...How to go about it?

[Matthew Hutchinson477]

The dowels are not absolutely essential, especially if you have a helper. They make the glue up go a lot quicker and with less stress and less flattening required afterward. School of Hard Knocks graduate ( PhD) talking.

The wax keeps the dowels from becoming glued into the holes. They can induce splitting or delamination in subsequent months as the wood becomes “skinnier “ otherwise. Biscuits will do an even better job if you have such equipment, and biscuits don’t need to be waxed.

If you do it by hand, I applaud you! I suggest you allow twice as much time as you estimate it will take. I was not kidding about losing weight. It’s a lot of wood to dimension.

Stan

Not to get too Schwarz-y up in here but:

https://blog.lostartpress.com/2018/0...orkbench-tops/

What are your thoughts on loose tenons vs dowels? Dowels would obviously be a lot easier. But is there any advantage to loose tenons that I'm not thinking of?

And while I'm at it...what glue would you use?

[Stanley Covington]

Not to get too Schwarz-y up in here but:

https://blog.lostartpress.com/2018/0...orkbench-tops/

What are your thoughts on loose tenons vs dowels? Dowels would obviously be a lot easier. But is there any advantage to loose tenons that I'm not thinking of?

And while I'm at it...what glue would you use?

I have been fascinated with the idea of pegged tenons as (supposedly) used by the English Woodworker dude for some years now. I would love to give them a try. But as you pointed out, they are a LOT more work.

The biggest advantage to tenons would be that if the glue bond fails, the top should stay together, assuming the tenons are pinned correctly.

Re glue, I would use Titebond III. Regular Titebond will set too quickly, and I want the extra water-resistance Titebond III provides. If money is not an issue, a marine epoxy like TotalBoat would be even better.

As I mentioned before, a biscuit joiner would be better and a lot quicker.

[Matthew Hutchinson477]

As I mentioned before, a biscuit joiner would be better and a lot quicker.

Don't tempt me...

As for the pegged tenons. Despite my lack of experience I still feel fairly confident in saying that it's overkill. I've seen too many benches without that kind of joinery that seem to hold up just fine.

Epoxy would be nice for peace of mind but $$$.

Have you or anyone else seen any laminations fail for any reason other than poor construction to begin with?

[Stanley Covington]

Don't tempt me...

As for the pegged tenons. Despite my lack of experience I still feel fairly confident in saying that it's overkill. I've seen too many benches without that kind of joinery that seem to hold up just fine.

Epoxy would be nice for peace of mind but $$$.

Have you or anyone else seen any laminations fail for any reason other than poor construction to begin with?

I have seen laminations fail many times in commercial situations. Poor bond (not enough glue, bad glue, or dimensional problems that create a gap too big for glue to span). Water. Rot. Excessive shear stresses. The first is a quality problem. The last is a design/loading problem. The others are environmental. Wood is not really a durable material.

[William Fretwell]

So water, rot and excessive stress? You must mean earthquakes, biblical floods and plagues of wood eating insects? It used to be so easy to just glue a few boards together........
If they are 4 inches wide and fairly flat even at 30% contact that's a lot of glue contact.

You could also drill right through the width of the assembled top a foot from each end and in the middle & install threaded steel rod with countersunk washers & bolts to stop it from even thinking of coming apart. I believe 24" drill bits are fairly common and sometimes they go straight. Now you only have to worry about the plagues of wood boring beetles; that's what I did .

Back to glue area, if you plane the boards flat before ripping, then rip, then glue, you get more glue area contact. Why? Because you just halved the irregularities before glue up.

[Stanley Covington]

So water, rot and excessive stress? You must mean earthquakes, biblical floods and plagues of wood eating insects? It used to be so easy to just glue a few boards together........
If they are 4 inches wide and fairly flat even at 30% contact that's a lot of glue contact.

You could also drill right through the width of the assembled top a foot from each end and in the middle & install threaded steel rod with countersunk washers & bolts to stop it from even thinking of coming apart. I believe 24" drill bits are fairly common and sometimes they go straight. Now you only have to worry about the plagues of wood boring beetles; that's what I did .

Back to glue area, if you plane the boards flat before ripping, then rip, then glue, you get more glue area contact. Why? Because you just halved the irregularities before glue up.

Thinking before snarking is a sound policy.

All it takes is a flood (lots of those going around), a leaky roof or flashing, or a leaky waterpipe, drain pipe, or condensation pan overhead to provide water. Once soaked, a laminated wood product will delaminate if/when the glue fails. Happens everyday, donchano. Ergo, water-resistant TiteBond III glue or marine epoxy. Belt, suspenders, and a carbon-fiber cup.

If, through circumstances or neglect, the wood is allowed to remain damp long enough, bacteria will thrive and rot will occur. Bugs too, I suppose. The bond between glue and wood will fail in this case even if the glue does not degrade.

Rot and bug damage can be mitigated by using pressure-treated wood (yuck), or borax-treated wood. That's the commercial glulam solution.

Stresses are a significant issue in structural glulams. They do fail. Maybe the cause is an earthquake. Maybe its snowload or too many fat people twerking at once. While stress is a significant factor in the failure of laminated wood products, it is not relevant to workbench tops.

Through-bolts are an effective substitute for clamps during glueup, but if seasonal humidity changes are high, they can cause more problems than they solve in wider laminations.

The ripping method I suggested saves time and effort, assuming one has a tablesaw or gluelam saw with adequate capacity. If one has to rip everything by hand, then I agree with your proposed modification.

What irregularities? Those were already cleaned up in step 3.

[William Fretwell]

Titebond III is a worthwhile investment, I get the gallon jugs. I did watch one bench glue up where he added 400 screws as he went, keeping track of their positions!
As for irregularities, it's wood! My bench top edge joints were tuned with 1500 W of halogen floodlight right behind the joint until the light went out.
I did use epoxy for the tail vise & shoulder vise joints for gap filling & shear strength. The finish applied to the bench will do a lot to help shed water such as BLO.
Something as simple as a plastic backed drop cloth draped over the bench when left will cost $5 and save lots of worry about water. My workshop roof leaks in one spot in extreme weather, the spot is clearly marked on the concrete so the only thing I leave there is a bucket!

[Stanley Covington]

Titebond III is a worthwhile investment, I get the gallon jugs. I did watch one bench glue up where he added 400 screws as he went, keeping track of their positions!
As for irregularities, it's wood! My bench top edge joints were tuned with 1500 W of halogen floodlight right behind the joint until the light went out.
I did use epoxy for the tail vise & shoulder vise joints for gap filling & shear strength. The finish applied to the bench will do a lot to help shed water such as BLO.
Something as simple as a plastic backed drop cloth draped over the bench when left will cost $5 and save lots of worry about water. My workshop roof leaks in one spot in extreme weather, the spot is clearly marked on the concrete so the only thing I leave there is a bucket!

A word to the wise. There are a few of you here at SMC. Do not rely on BLO to protect a workbench top or any wood from water damage.

Developing, applying, and using finishes intended to protect wood from water damage is an effort that involves many industries, many companies, and millions of end-users around the world. There is a lot of money and real estate at stake, so serious, well-educated, no-nonsense people focused on real-world results, not the scribblers that shill power tools via hobbyist magazines, have been focused like a laser on this problem for many generations. A lot of testing of wood finishes has been performed by government, institutional, and commercial researchers over many decades. Those results are published, and consistent. BLO is an ancient wood finishing product. But every result I have read concludes that BLO provides almost no protection against moisture intrusion, liquid or vapor, into wood fibers. That means almost ZERO protection. It doesn't work, but is simply a traditional finish that is easily applied. I know all the scribblers and gurus love the stuff, but it is worthless.

Many have an emotional investment in BLO, strange as that sounds. But if you doubt what I am writing, do some research. Your woodworking projects deserve better than BLO.

[Robert Engel]

Matthew,

One word of advice: Don't over complicate it. This is not a difficult task. The main thing to remember is do not plane your lumber to final dims in one session. If its well seasoned take at least 2 planing sessions, maybe even 3. Allow 3-4 days in stickers to dry and de-stress. This is less critical for qs wood, but still a good practice to develop.

So here would be my process for your lumber:

1. Cut to rough lengths.
1a.Rip boards in half with bandsaw or tracksaw (unless you have at least a 10" jonter & please do NOT use tablesaw for this!)
2. Joint 1 face
3. Plane to rough thickness (remember to leave over size)
4. Joint 1 edge.
5. Rip to rough width (1/4" oversize & jointed edge against fence)
6. Sticker for at least 2 and up to 7 days
7. Repeat jointing, planing and re-rip to final dims.
8. Glue up (face to face) in sections no wider than your planer can handle.
6. Clean up with planer -LIGHT passes both sides
7. Glue subsections together.
8. Fine tune for final flattening/detwisting with hand planes.

If you have worries about alignment you can use biscuits, splines, or dowels but they are not necessary.

Use TB III glue.

Build the base first use it for working on top.

Pay close attention and be SURE you glue up the top with the grain direction the same for a nice final planing job.

[Matthew Hutchinson477]

A word to the wise. There are a few of you here at SMC. Do not rely on BLO to protect a workbench top or any wood from water damage.

Developing, applying, and using finishes intended to protect wood from water damage is an effort that involves many industries, many companies, and millions of end-users around the world. There is a lot of money and real estate at stake, so serious, well-educated, no-nonsense people focused on real-world results, not the scribblers that shill power tools via hobbyist magazines, have been focused like a laser on this problem for many generations. A lot of testing of wood finishes has been performed by government, institutional, and commercial researchers over many decades. Those results are published, and consistent. BLO is an ancient wood finishing product. But every result I have read concludes that BLO provides almost no protection against moisture intrusion, liquid or vapor, into wood fibers. That means almost ZERO protection. It doesn't work, but is simply a traditional finish that is easily applied. I know all the scribblers and gurus love the stuff, but it is worthless.

Many have an emotional investment in BLO, strange as that sounds. But if you doubt what I am writing, do some research. Your woodworking projects deserve better than BLO.

I have unfortunately had to accept this reality. As I first got into woodworking I spent a lot of time playing with old axes. If you go on any outdoors forum and read the talk about axes, you will hear all kinds of things about BLO from every "expert." Everything from "soak the entire axe in linseed oil for a week so that the oil soaks in deeper" to "thin the oil with a solvent so it soaks in deeper" etc. etc.

As I got into woodworking more I got ahold of Bob Flexner's book which basically says that BLO is almost worthless for water resistance. I actually posted that information on one forum to which a lot of old timey "experts" said bs. After all, Bob Flexner is just some random guy who wrote a book, and obviously that is no match for some random guy on the internet who learned from his grandpappy who grew up around the woods but didn't graduate eighth grade.

Anywhoo, there's a good study that was done by the Forest Service in which they tested all the different common finishes including BLO. It's pretty easy to find so I won't attach it here. Needless to say it basically confirms that BLO is the least protective wood finish out there.

That all said, I still use BLO quite a bit including on all my axe and tool handles. If I'm that worried about moisture then BLO mixed with beeswax. Still not that protective but honestly I think some folks get a little overprotective when it comes to moisture. My BLO-finished axe handles get wet and spend plenty of time outside, and I've never had an issue. I just wipe off any moisture when I can and put a new coat of BLO on every year or so. If there was any risk of standing water being on a wooden item for some time-like a workbench in a room that has a leaky roof-then I would probably not use BLO. But as of now that is my plan because I like the look and feel of it, and more importantly I like how easy it is to repair and maintain.

[Matthew Hutchinson477]

Matthew,

One word of advice: Don't over complicate it.

But that is one of my primary skills in life...

[Matthew Hutchinson477]

Next question, though, now that I've had a few days to mull this over.

I do have access to a regular lunchbox planer that a friend has, and it should be wide enough for this stuff. I think I'll be fine flattening one face enough for the planer, and I think I can probably handle jointing the edges as well.

What I don't think I want to do by hand is make the long rips, and I don't have a band saw. I've been considering buying one for some time so maybe that time is now but I am wondering if a circular saw with a track/guide would do the job as well. My only concern with that idea is find a track or straight enough guide that is 72"+ long. Thoughts?

[Phil Mueller]

My suggestion would be to rip it as close as you can by eye and run them through the thickness planer using the outside edge (assuming it’s fairly flat, level and square) to even everything up prior to the glue up. It’s all going to need to be planed flat once it’s glued up, so don’t worry about a fraction of an inch here and there.

[Stanley Covington]

Next question, though, now that I've had a few days to mull this over.

I do have access to a regular lunchbox planer that a friend has, and it should be wide enough for this stuff. I think I'll be fine flattening one face enough for the planer, and I think I can probably handle jointing the edges as well.

What I don't think I want to do by hand is make the long rips, and I don't have a band saw. I've been considering buying one for some time so maybe that time is now but I am wondering if a circular saw with a track/guide would do the job as well. My only concern with that idea is find a track or straight enough guide that is 72"+ long. Thoughts?

Use a handplane, straightedge and winding sticks (or equivalent) to clean up one side (widest dimension = 8" right?). It doesn't need to be perfect. With one side cleaned up on all the boards, put them through the thickness planer to clean the opposite side. Then switch sides and clean up the face you handplaned. This should get the two faces pretty close to parallel.

Use your handplane to true and straighten one edge, square to the sides.

Now, you can use a circular saw with a guide to rip each to width. The guide does not need to be long, just solid. You can screw a wooden extension to the guide if it makes you feel better. You just need to be steady, keep the quide tight against the edge you hand jointed, and take your time in the cut. Don't let the motor bog down. Make sure the blade is 90 degrees to the saw's plate. Seriously, check it on their with a square. Don't rely on those silly indexing/angle marks the manufacturers put on their saws. Not to be trusted. If you get this wrong, the time and material wasted will make you want to cry.

Don't forget to scrub the wood with a steel brush and cut off 1/4" of the end of each board to eliminate embedded grit. This is especially important if you are borrowing someone else's tools. Offer to pay to have his blades sharpened. Always return a tool you borrowed in better condition than when you received it.

[Matthew Hutchinson477]

Now, you can use a circular saw with a guide to rip each to width. The guide does not need to be long, just solid. You can screw a wooden extension to the guide if it makes you feel better. You just need to be steady, keep the quide tight against the edge you hand jointed, and take your time in the cut. Don't let the motor bog down. Make sure the blade is 90 degrees to the saw's plate. Seriously, check it on their with a square. Don't rely on those silly indexing/angle marks the manufacturers put on their saws. Not to be trusted. If you get this wrong, the time and material wasted will make you want to cry.

I'm gonna give this a shot on one of the boards to see how it goes. I'll joint one edge first to have a good reference for the saw guide. Right now my only alternative is a table saw and honestly I feel more comfortable using a circular saw here. The table saw I can borrow doesn't have a riving knife or any other safety features, and these boards are also full of sap and pitch that I'm not sure how a table saw would handle.