[OP]
Contributor
We are very pleased with our house design. It runs very low utility bills for Michigan. It's pretty basic;
Ranch with full unfinished basement, one ceiling level, nothing vaulted
No sliding glass doors or skylights
No fireplace
3 1/2" fiberglass in the walls and 12" fiberglass and blown in in the ceiling
Foil backed drywall serves as a moisture barrier
Old standard efficiency forced air gas furnace
Gas water heater and stove
Attached garage
Good doors and windows properly installed
Contributor
Sounds good Tom. Lotta smarts there.
Last edited by Frederick Skelly; 02-24-2018 at 9:20 PM.
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
“If you want to know what a man's like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals.”
Member
Just built a new house 2 years ago. two story over 2,500 sq ft. with full unfinished basement, insulation, fancy windows, LED lights where ever possible. Two furnaces, one for upstairs one downstairs. Propane for heat and cooking from June 30, 2016 to July 2, 2017 was $489.00. Thing is, there are so many other things we could have added. A buddy has an old brick house with slate roof. He put a circulator fan in the attic, so when heat hits 90 degrees in the attic, the warm air is circulated through the house, if the house is under 72 degrees, or outside, if the house is above 72 degrees. Saved him nearly a third off his natural gas bill in one year. My grandparent's house had a brick wall in the kitchen that had a southern exposure. The heat from the sun hitting the bricks helped keep the kitchen warm in winter and spring. Outside was a grape arbor that shaded the brick wall in summer and fall, helping keep the kitchen cool. Guess Grandpop, a cabinet maker by trade, who died in 1956, was also an energy engineer.
Contributor
A properly sealed house shouldn't be allowing the attic to hit 90 degrees during heating season unless it is heating up due to solar rays hitting the roof. I had the insulation pulled out of my attic and spray foam applied to seal all the air leaks into the attic. A foot of blown-in fiberglass was placed on top of the spray foam.
Contributor
Amen. Its hard to find new efficiently designed ranch homes around here despite increasing numbers of old retirees who want them. Builders tell me its too costly per SF because of the relatively large foundation size. So they build mostly cheap starter homes and multi-story McMansions.
Contributor
Most home buyers buy the looks, not the mechanicals and insulation. Shoppers for starter homes are very price sensitive and an extra $5,000 for better efficiency will send them to the other builder that is $5,000 less, but not energy efficient. Most buyers would much rather spend $5,000 on better interior finishes before energy efficiency. They can show off the fancy appliances and granite countertops to friends and family, but they can't show off upgraded insulation.
Here in Minnesota there is state code requiring more energy efficient houses. My house was built in 1980, but I remodeled it before I moved in. My total gas and electric bill for a year is $1,250. Previous owners paid $3,500 a year because of all the air leaks and such. My ideal house would be built with SIPs, or at least have spray foam insulation.
Contributor
I am surprised you can get away with so little in the walls in your climate. In most of California you would have to add styrofoam over that wall to meet insulation code minimum.
Bill D
Moderator
Bill, 3.5" in the wall can be as much as R15 these days and depending on the sheathing type, the wall, itself, could get into the neighborhood of R19-R21. 12" of blown-in Fiberglas up top should theoretically be in the neighborhood of R30-32 if installed correctly and many times is higher because of being over-blown. Depending on when the OP's home was actually built, he's sitting pretty good. Only new construction or major renovation generally triggers the higher levels that are now code in some areas.
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The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...
Contributor
I guess my info is from watching houses built in the 1990's around here. I have no idea why California still allows R13 instead of R15 fiberglass in the walls. I have a feeling the builders have paid off the law makers.Originally Posted by Jim Becker
Bill D.
I know our friends in the mountains at Truckee have much more stringent codes for insulation and snow loads then much of the country.
Moderator
What applies to new construction and major renovations doesn't apply to what was installed years ago. But yes, sometimes localized codes don't make sense, like permitting R13 insulation, when R15 is readily available for almost the same cost. Same with regard to R19...R21 is readily available and fits in the same space for about the same cost. But it wasn't so long ago that R11 was still permitted in walls... go figure!
Me...I'm a closed cell spray foam fan. R7.5 per inch.Adds rigidity and is a nearly complete moisture barrier. Costs more up-front, but the payback can be relatively quick in many geographies based on average weather and energy costs.
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The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...
Member
The OP listed lots of good points. Another important point is to have a modestly sized house. I was perfectly comfortable growing up in a 1200sf house. It seemed big enough at the time. Even with 1950 style insulation, the heating bills will likely be smaller than a modern 4000sf house.
Steve
Member
As a fellow Michigander I'm surprised at the 2x4 walls. I've considered building each time we've moved and wouldn't do less than 2x6. We lived in a 1991 ~2000sqft ranch for 11 years and moved to a 2003 ~2200sqft 2-story about 3-1/2 years ago. The ranch we added insulation in the attic and while it cut our utility bills slightly we found the house to be less comfortable because we actually found the house less comfortable because our bedroom stayed too warm at night in the winter! Probably a mixed bag on benefits and drawbacks. One reason I don't have a shop anymore is the surprisingly smaller basement of a 2-story. The big, bright 2-story foyer in our current house is a worth any "wasted" energy to me. Upstairs gets awfully warm in the summer, but its nice not having guests walk past the master on the way to the bathroom, not having our daughter's bedroom literally 10' from the living room and not having her bedroom across from my office is nice. Also it takes a lot less time getting hot water from as much as 60' away to a bathroom but doing a project that requires getting utilities from the basement to the upstairs is a pain. Even running a simple Cat5 cable is time consuming. Lastly, I wasn't comfortable getting on the roof of the ranch and there's NO WAY I'll get on the 2nd story roof! On the other hand the TV antenna that had to go on the roof of the old house works just fine in the attic here.
Utility costs are difficult to compare as we added natural gas and a heat pump at the old place the last couple years. Our bills here are probably higher here with run-of-the-mill furnace and AC but not enough to spend money on improvements.
Moderator
Matt, I don't disagree, but with closed cell spray foam, you can balance the lower material cost of 2x4 walls with the higher initial cost of the insulation and end up better than you would have with 2x6 and conventional insulation...and the stiffening that the foam provides makes the walls very, very sturdy. We did that with our addition here in 2008 and the cost was not quite a wash. Only one small wall area was done with 2x6 and that was to better assist with space for utilities, etc.,
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The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...
Contributor
It honestly doesn't sound all that efficient. It sounds like any old house anywhere for the most part. You don't mention the square footage or actual cost to heat and cool the building for example, or draw any comparisons to what you deem as typical utility bills for your area. You don't mention what temperature you heat / cool to. Lots of missing info to make any conclusions from in my mind. Assuming you are correct though, what do you think is giving the biggest savings in your utility bills?
Contributor
I am building one now that has a 3/4" dead air space on all exterior walls and a 1 1/2" dead air space on all the ceilings, steel frame, urethane foam walls and ceiling, infloor heat with both gas and solar heat sources, and Marvin all ultrex windows. Curious to see how it heats/cools.
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