The Coticule of the Ardenne

[ernest dubois]

DSCF3287.jpg
A laminated with off-cut for making slurry and a shard I picked out of tailings at the side of the mine. I always collect these for gouges, small edges etc....
The stone from the original vein was better quality, a bit harder. One in the second-hand shop I had I've given away now.

[Philipp Jaindl]

As has already been said a bit Off-Topic in Brians chisel thread, they are fantastic stones, though Prices nowadays are sometimes just ludicrous for the yellow ones at least.

How long does yours last untill you need to flatten it again? in my experience some Steels and very narrow tools "dent" it faster then id like.

Also do you have any experience with the Blue ones? they are available in good size Stones for agreeable prices, never used one myself though.

[Lasse Hilbrandt]

belgisk brokke.jpg
belgisk brokke1.jpg

This stone is not laminated as a coticule usually is. What you see is both sides of the stone. Im not sure, but I think its a Belgian Coticule, but its a bit confusing since its not laminated. It belongs to a friend of mine.

[Patrick Chase]

A laminated with off-cut for making slurry and a shard I picked out of tailings at the side of the mine. I always collect these for gouges, small edges etc....
The stone from the original vein was better quality, a bit harder. One in the second-hand shop I had I've given away now.

Do you know which vein yours came from? I've always been curious to try a good La Veinette stone, but they're astronomically expensive and I'm not that dedicated.

[ernest dubois]

How long between flattening? A long time. But this is more to do with my economy with these stones. As I put it before, on odd shaped edges I turn to small shards which I have given a flat surface so I can economize on the bench stones.
P5151028.jpg

Two of the purple sit on the workbench. They are markedly slower cutting. The bench sized stone was between 25 & 30 €, the other one I use as my axe stone also a reasonable price, no need to be particularly economizing with these. I like the smell they give in use.

[ernest dubois]

It's a coticule, I'm almost certain, a bit of the hard stone is embedded. Does your friend flush it with petroleum? I have had one almost the same though less fissured, also solid but then the stones out of the original vein were somewhat harder. These are the highly coveted versions. Mine I gave away.

belgisk brokke.jpg
belgisk brokke1.jpg

This stone is not laminated as a coticule usually is. What you see is both sides of the stone. Im not sure, but I think its a Belgian Coticule, but its a bit confusing since its not laminated. It belongs to a friend of mine.

[Lasse Hilbrandt]

Ernest, My friend has´nt used it yet. He recently found in the basement of a house he just bought. It was in a box with some old wooden hand planes. How does he find out if petroleum has been used with it and is it important ?

[ernest dubois]

It's known that some users will flush with machine oil or diesel, or something like it but, the convention is definitely using water with these stones. The one I know that uses oil claims it reduces wear and hardens the stone. It should be obvious with the stone in hand whether oil has been used by feel or smell and when that is the case it should continue to be used. I only mentioned it because the thought struck me looking at the photo. With water it's not my experience that filings accumulate in the fissures with oil I can imagine that they would and cause this accentuation we can see.

On the question of the specific geological origins of my stones, it would take far more competence in the French language than I possess to get that information out of the people I bought it from. It's a way of saying, I don't know which vein, but think it was a good one.

[John C Cox]

Interesting world we live in.... The fact that I have never heard of Belgian or French coticule prior to this.. And i have never seen anything else in real life besides Japanese stuff, Arkansas, India, and sandpaper.....

But yet everybody in the world has been woodworking for a very long time... And they must have sharpened on something.....

[Lasse Hilbrandt]

Interesting world we live in.... The fact that I have never heard of Belgian or French coticule prior to this.. And i have never seen anything else in real life besides Japanese stuff, Arkansas, India, and sandpaper.....

But yet everybody in the world has been woodworking for a very long time... And they must have sharpened on something.....

In the Scandinavia we used slate until Belgian Coticule and even later Arkansas and India became awaileble.

[Patrick Chase]

In the Scandinavia we used slate until Belgian Coticule and even later Arkansas and India became available.

SNat!

You probably know this, but the Belgian blue stone that backs non-laminated coticules is a slate.

India stones don't really count IMO, since those are just Alumina and a binder, like a synthetic waterstone.

[ernest dubois]

Many stones existing outside the parameters of the Angelo/English experience, (the Japanese stones having recently gotten drawn in). A nice stone coming out of the Pyrenees is one similar to the dark Arkansas and still queried, popular and readily available in France. The Orsasten near the known edge tool producing area of Mora and Eskultuna in Sweden for example. Still, I believe that coticule is regarded as the best of these by some.

[Patrick Chase]

Many stones existing outside the parameters of the Angelo/English experience, (the Japanese stones having recently gotten drawn in). A nice stone coming out of the Pyrenees is one similar to the dark Arkansas and still queried, popular and readily available in France. The Orsasten near the known edge tool producing area of Mora and Eskultuna in Sweden for example. Still, I believe that coticule is regarded as the best of these by some.

I've come to believe that the best is usually whatever the speaker has learned how to use most effectively (where that learning often includes things like tool/steel selection). IMO that has a lot to do with why sharpening is such a contentious topic.

I also think that it's safe to say that some media are more "accessible" than others, with coticules probably being more on the skill-intensive end of the spectrum. I wouldn't recommend them to somebody who just wants a "good enough" edge in a hurry.

[John C Cox]

I wouldn't recommend them to somebody who just wants a "good enough" edge in a hurry.

Yeah... The power belt sander sucked all the wind out of the "good enough quick" Sharpening Universe didn't it...

I guess it just surprises me that Japanese water stones are all the rage - and yet there is an almost completely unknown (in The States) European equivalent that's been around for just as long - maybe longer... Reinventing hot water I suppose...

[Patrick Chase]

Yeah... The power belt sander sucked all the wind out of the "good enough quick" Sharpening Universe didn't it...

Depends on your definition of "good enough". Trizact belts top out at 6 um (~2000#, or 2500# if you're rating "a la Shapton"). There's a huge gap between that and what the razor types wring out of their coticules. Well-lapped Arks, synthetic waterstones, Spydercos, etc all inhabit that gap, which IMO is a reasonable place to strive towards for woodworking.

As an aside, Coticules are also ~6 um, but you can't really rely on particle size when comparing a super-aggressive geometry like the "Trizact pyramid" to something like dodecahedral garnet particles as in Coticules. The latter seem to be comparable to micron or sub-micron Alumina.

I guess it just surprises me that Japanese water stones are all the rage - and yet there is an almost completely unknown (in The States) European equivalent that's been around for just as long - maybe longer... Reinventing hot water I suppose...

"Completely unknown" is a bit strong. The straight razor crowd have all been aware of Coticules for a long time. I'm not into that but I know a bit (rough history, the major veins/types, etc) from osmosis.

Part of it is that Coticules are regarded as providing a very "soft but sharp" edge, which is highly desirable for shaving but not as prized in WWing. See the last couple shots here and note the "micro-dubbing" of the blade tip. If your only exposure to this stuff is from our community then it's understandable that you'd be more attuned to Japanese-style waterstones.