plane and tear out question

[charles mathieu]

Hi guys ! I just finished my first ever woodworking bench and it was also the 1st time I bought and used a plane, the veritas low angle jack. I had some very hard time planing the aprons and the top, I read scharwz's book on handplanes, watched many youtubes videos etc but I had a lot of tear out. I used some cheap and knotty 2x12 spruce lumber, which is all I have around here. I noticed most of the tear out occured around knots. So is there a way to deal with those knots beside skewing the plane, having a super sharp blade and taking really cuts ?



On a side note, can this low angle jack be used a smoother or do I really need a smoother for that ? What's the difference ? Thanks !

[Mishkin Derakhshan]

first of all super nice bench!

I'm still a beginner so maybe you can indeed plane around a knot and get it perfect, but I was also having trouble, even with a smoother plane. I switched to a card scrapper to smooth out those areas and got WAY better results.

[John C Cox]

Sanding is the ultimate equalizer around really horrible grain...

Other things that help with your plane:
Thinner shavings
Tighter chip breaker setting to the edge
Close the mouth more
Steeper bevel angle - a total angle of 55-65 degrees (bevel + bedding angle)

and last - a good sharp card scraper...

[Mike Baker 2]

I built my bench with 2x4 lumber that was donated. There was no drought of knots with it. What I found worked was a sharp blade, light cuts, and a skewed angle when I approached and passed over the knots. That went a lot smoother. Not perfect, but way, way better.

[Stanley Covington]

Hi guys ! I just finished my first ever woodworking bench and it was also the 1st time I bought and used a plane, the veritas low angle jack. I had some very hard time planing the aprons and the top, I read scharwz's book on handplanes, watched many youtubes videos etc but I had a lot of tear out. I used some cheap and knotty 2x12 spruce lumber, which is all I have around here. I noticed most of the tear out occured around knots. So is there a way to deal with those knots beside skewing the plane, having a super sharp blade and taking really cuts ?



On a side note, can this low angle jack be used a smoother or do I really need a smoother for that ? What's the difference ? Thanks !

Charles:

The Low-Angle Jack planes (LAJ) are interesting. I bought the Lie-Nielson version when they first came out some years ago (2000~2002) simply because of the novelty. Lee Valley (LV) and Lie-Nielson (LN) both promote their LA Jacks as a first plane new guys should buy, and it makes some sense.

The Jack plane is a very versatile plane: Long enough to do dimensioning, and short enough to do smoothing. Wide enough to be efficient, not too wide to push hard all day. But what about the Low-angle (aka Bevel-up) version?

Advantages:
1) Cost: $245 for both the LV and LN LAJ vs. $325 for the LN LAJ and $329 for the LV LAJ. This makes the LAJ about 32% less than the standard bevel-down planes.

2) Simplicity: The LAJ obviously has far fewer parts, and especially moving parts, than the more complicated traditional frogy planes.

Lee Valley has a video on YouTube that concisely describes the advantages of their LAJ. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a943gGTJoIE
Lie-Nielson's website describes the advantages of their version. Both say the same thing for the most part.

3) Length: Long enough (14" & 15") to remove machining marks left by jointers.

4) Perfect for flattening boards.

5) The simplified frog-less design is ideal for shooting.

6) Multiple blades can be readied to deal with different planing conditions.

Are They Really Advantages?
Point 1, cost, is a definite advantage.

Point 2, simplicity of design is a definite advantage from the viewpoint of the newbie trying to figure out how to use his first bench plane. But that simplicity comes at a price, which is no chipbreaker. In my experience, a chipbreaker is critical to reducing/preventing tearout when planing wood with a cantankerous grain, as you are trying to do, Charles. I don't count this as an advantage.

Point 3, length, is not unique to the LAJ, or any jack plane. A smoothing plane or jointer plane can do the same job.

Point 4, width, is not unique to the LAJ, or any jack plane. A smoothing plane or jointer plane can do the same job.

Point 5, simplified design and shooting ability is not unique to the LAJ. A standard jack plane, smoothing plane or mitre plane can do the same job. The simplified mechanism is not an advantage. However, what they don't mention is that angle of the blade presented to the end grain on a shooting board makes the blade a bit more durable, and the cutting a little smoother (especially when the blade gets a little dull) IMO. The LN mitre plane has the same advantage, but production/sales has been discontinued. Interestingly, LN's No.51 shooting plane has the more complicated standard frog. I have not used this plane.

Point 6, multiple blades, is a clever way to sell more blades to newbies, but I don't consider this an advantage, rather a crutch.

I think the LAJ is a bit of a low-cost gimmick, and not a substitute for a standard bench plane. My recommendation is to save your LAJ for dimensioning, shooting and planing end grain, and get a standard bench plane which will control tearout better, a Jack or smoother or whatever, for smoothing. Figure out how to effectively use it, and most of your difficulties will be solved.

All else equal, a useful technique to prevent/reduce tearout is wet the surface of the wood with a damp rag and let the water soak in a bit before planing. Not sopping wet, mind you, just damp. This won't hurt your plane so long as you don't let water stand on the metal. Use an oilpot. On thin material, warpage can occur so don't let the water soak in.

Some people like Mr. Schwarz advocate using alcohol. I have heard that whisky works wonders, but suspect the secondary medicinal benefits are the actual attraction to some. Plain water is a healthier, and certainly more economical solution.

Two cents, and worth every penny you paid.

[steven c newman]

2nd panel.jpg
Knotty pine...
shavings.jpg
Meet Stanley #4....

[Patrick Chase]

You need a second iron (or to hone the one you have at a much higher angle, though that will reduce end-grain performance).

The LAJ is capable of smoothing, but it comes with a 25 deg iron and has a 12 deg bed, leading to a 37 deg total cutting angle. That's very low for smoothing with a bevel-up (no cap iron) plane, and is why you're getting so much tearout. Usually when people smooth with bevel-up planes like that one they use total angles of 50 deg (38 deg tip bevel on the iron) or more.

LV sells an iron for that plane with a 38 deg bevel, which should work well for stuff like your bench. Getting one of those or re-honing your existing iron with a 38 deg microbevel may be your easiest option.

[William Fretwell]

Tear out with the LA BU Jack is normal with reversing grain around knots, often the tear out is horrible and jams the throat. Wood conditions have to be excellent for the plane to work well. I only use mine for shooting end grain now. The higher angle blade makes little difference, I have tried.
The LA BU Jack is an unfortunate fad in my opinion. I have a Stanley 5&1/2 jack and a Clifton 5&1/2 jack both have chip breakers, both do a much better job. The extra weight of the Clifton does a better job than the Stanley and you don't even notice the weight as it dances on the wood.
You will need a smoother someday but you first should buy a different Jack.

[charles mathieu]

Wow ! Thank you so much guys for your input ! It's a shame that I spent so much money on that plane, I wonder if I can return it and buy a standard bevel down jack ?

[Stanley Covington]

Wow ! Thank you so much guys for your input ! It's a shame that I spent so much money on that plane, I wonder if I can return it and buy a standard bevel down jack ?

Some of the guys on this forum might have an idea about the possible resale value of your plane. You might consider using it as a dedicated shooting plane.

But William is right: You need a standard bench plane with a chipbreaker to deal with tearout.

I think we have all been in your position. Try to save some money by buying a less-expensive tool, one that everyone (especially the retailer) says is great, only to find that it won't do the job, and end up paying even more in the end.

Good luck.

Stan

[Robert Engel]

Charles,

Join the club the swirly grain around knots is always a pain. I usually stay away from a plane and either use a scraper or sand.

That being said, it is possible to plane wild grain in principle by increasing the angle and using a very well honed iron.

There are high angle frogs for bench planes, or a 5-10° back bevel will simulate/

For your LA plane this is achieved by altering the bevel (or have a second iron) to achieve a 50-60° bevel angle.

You figure this by subracting the bedding angle (15° I think) so you need 40° bevel on the iron to achieve a 55° effective planing angle.

But like I said, I go scraper/sand. Tear out is not easily repaired.

[Jim Koepke]

Swirly grain around knots and tear out go together like a wink and a smile.

jtk

[glenn bradley]

You need a second iron (or to hone the one you have at a much higher angle, though that will reduce end-grain performance).

I am in this camp. I have several Veritas planes that take the same iron format (LAJ, BU joiner, BU smoother, etc.). A 50* iron is my weapon of choice for pesky grain. I ordered each plane with a different iron plus I have a few extra bought during clearances or Black Fridays on the cheap.

[Patrick Chase]

Wow ! Thank you so much guys for your input ! It's a shame that I spent so much money on that plane, I wonder if I can return it and buy a standard bevel down jack ?

Don't throw away money and tools to chase perfection just yet. The LAJ can do competent smoothing with a higher-angle iron. You would probably get OK results right away by investing a minute of work (to increase the secondary bevel).

To put things in perspective, the folks on this very forum were telling people like you that a LAJ was the way to go less than a decade ago, and in many cases shouting down anybody who argued that cap irons helped tearout [*]. They were wrong then and are "more right" now, but the point is that a BU plane like that is competent enough at smoothing that reasonable people were able to think that it was (and is) "good enough".

BU planes like that are also a bit easier to set up than traditional jacks.

Disclaimer: I mostly smooth with double-iron, bevel-down planes.

[*] Note that in many cases these were different people. Warren Mickley (who hasn't popped up in this thread) always correctly insisted that double irons were the preferred solution to tearout. I don't know Stan's "internet history" but given that he's steeped in the Japanese tradition I would guess that he was happily using cap irons for difficult woods all along as well.

[David Bassett]

Wow ! Thank you so much guys for your input ! It's a shame that I spent so much money on that plane, I wonder if I can return it and buy a standard bevel down jack ?

Cart, horse. At least, slow down a little.

Patrick said most of what I was thinking and said it better than I would. But one more thing that seems clear is that setting a chip-breaker optimally is a skill. Set it too close and the plane won't push well, set it too far and you've (effectively) got a single iron blade. How close? It depends on the depth of cut and the wood. Also, the face of the chip-breaker as well as its mating surface may need to be tuned for best results. It short, it's not hard to see how someone could get it wrong and conclude a BU plane works as well or better. (Add in the Internet "everyone's an expert", in their own mind, mentality, and the path to well intentioned, but wrong or incomplete, information is no stretch.)

While I think the science is very clear, and is now pretty well explained, that chip-breakers are the most effective defense against tearout, the second most effective is cutting angle and that is trivially modified in BU planes. (By changing the bevel angle or adding a micro-bevel, as described previously.) Plus the lower angle is an advantage in end-grain. I think optimizing what you have is a better first step than throwing money at a new plane, which is likely to disappoint you at first. (Then get a bevel-down plane, maybe a jointer or a smoother, to compliment what you have. Spending your money is fun! )